Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#911

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:28 AM UTC

drrotmos wrote: post #716

43920 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that the technical limitations of iOS are what accomplishes this, rather than app review. For a malicious actor, sneaking prohibited behavior past app review is incredibly easy - look at what Fortnite just did! The reason that apps on iOS can't damage your device is that apps are sandboxed, and that the OS requires user permission to access data and places limits on how many resources an app can use. Th…

IIRC Apple has the ability to push a blacklist of apps that has slipped through the review, preventing them from running, not just from being installed. To my understanding, they've only ever used it for actual malware though, not for apps that they've pulled from the App Store due to "regular" breaches of the rules.

Apple can just revoke the certificate of developers that sign malware, preventing them from running. They also have the ability to pull apps from your device, but have never used it.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#912

Post by bananaface » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:28 AM UTC

yvdriess wrote: post #866

0xy wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A PR stunt that consumers and small businesses could benefit from. 30% decimates indie studios and makes some apps fiscally nonviable.

Regarding the 30% cut. It's the large scale clients that are hurt the most by the 30% cut. Old timer indie devs who used to have to manage payment and distribution themselves, like Jeff Vogel, will tell you that Steam's cut is absolutely fair given the value it brings. On PC there are different platforms competing for Steam, which might be a reason why Valve introduced discount tiers for more successful titles. If an…

I don't think Steam's cut is fair. Epic's cut is 12% and provide the damn game engine.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#913

Post by jalfresi » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:29 AM UTC

hijklmno wrote: post #696

It's not Apple vs. Fortnite. It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. We pay damn much and buy the phone. It is the user's property from then on. What the user install's and uninstall's from his phone should be his decision. Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. Apple is no longer the underdog…

What nonsense. As an Apple customer, the App store is the number one reason I use them - I dont want malware or scummy developers on my phone and I am happy with Apple charging a fee to developers in this manner.

It's not like anyone going to switch phones because your app is not on there. Your app is just one of many other apps I use on my phone.

Developers are very much looking at this the wrong way - the 30% fee is the price developers must pay to access Apples customers.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#914

Post by AndrewDavis » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:30 AM UTC

pankajdoharey wrote: post #899

hijklmno wrote: post #696

It's not Apple vs. Fortnite. It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. We pay damn much and buy the phone. It is the user's property from then on. What the user install's and uninstall's from his phone should be his decision. Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the app store running is forgivable. But 30% digging into users pocket is unpardonable. Apple is no longer the underdog…

Google also kicked Epic out but no body is talking about that not even Epic. Maybe because Statistically Android users are less likely to pay for apps and services than iOS users. So clearly iOS is where the money is and nothing wrong in Apple trying to protect that.

Epic filed a suit against Google too.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368363/epic-google-fort...

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#915

Post by Razengan » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:31 AM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #906

Razengan wrote: post #880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. Oh please. Nobody who actually uses Apple feels that way. Though I agree they should allow a way to sideload apps. One of the downsides of being primarily an iOS dev is not being able to participate in activities like game-jams because there's no way to casually share my stuff with other users. > Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the…

> they do a lot to curtail scummy developer practices. Which is excellent. Apple taking a cut for apps I have no problem with. They have support, I trust them with privacy/security and so on. That costs money. The interesting discussion is how much apple can claim to own a part of profits made in the apps, by selling content (in-app purchases). On one hand: if a game is free for a trial, and you can unlock the full g…

> if I buy a recipe app for $10 and then recipes for $1 a piece which I could also buy on the corresponding website, then I don't think apple should have a cut at all.

Ah that sounds like a fair point at first, but it could be argued that you gained access to those sales because of Apple.

More importantly, they're processing payments for you, and every payment processor out there takes a cut, one way or the other.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#916

Post by jalfresi » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:31 AM UTC

boudin wrote: post #905

Razengan wrote: post #880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's actually Apple vs. Users. Apple has been taking us for a ride this whole time. Oh please. Nobody who actually uses Apple feels that way. Though I agree they should allow a way to sideload apps. One of the downsides of being primarily an iOS dev is not being able to participate in activities like game-jams because there's no way to casually share my stuff with other users. > Taking a cut of say, 3%, to keep the…

Their review system is totally random, and that's what makes it painful. There's easy way to trick them for some things, so I wouldn't consider this as an actual proper safety net. It does give the impression of safety to the end user though, I guess that's the intent. Apple uses techniques from totalitarian regimes. They decide, judge and control everything. There's no freedom at all. You can only use what Apple dec…

As an Apple customer the review system is working very well for me. No malicious apps have got through the process and onto my phone yet.

In that sense, its worth it to me.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#917

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:31 AM UTC

sjy wrote: post #615

snowwrestler wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I would argue that consumers should have a legal right to install whatever software they wish on a product they have purchased, including onto the bundled operating system. The thing is, people do have this right on Apple phones; the Library of Congress can designate exemptions from the DMCA and they have done so for jailbreaking smart phones. You have the legal right to jailbreak your phone and install…

> You have the legal right to jailbreak your phone and install whatever you want; neither Apple nor the Feds can stop you. The law isn’t that simple, and even if it was, Apple does stop most people from jailbreaking most Apple devices most of the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Digital_Mille...

In the United States, the law is that simple.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#918

Post by krrrh » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:32 AM UTC

tidenly wrote: post #808

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #389

One of the biggest hurdles in trying to take antitrust action against Apple, I suspect, will be in proving that App Store policies cause harm to consumers rather than developers. There seem to be HN-favored narratives of "iOS users would rise up against the walled garden if they only understood" and "iOS users are too stupid and sheeplike to understand and rise up," but there is a more prosaic narrative of "iOS users…

While I'll partly concede that to you - it also is literally the case that Spotify couldn't drop to match Apple Music's prices exactly because or this 30% cut.

I subscribed to Spotify on their website for the same price as Apple Music, and their app works fine on my iPhone. Apple even distributes and delivers updates to the Spotify app on my iPhone for no cost to me or Spotify (well, Spotify does pay $99/a for the privilege).

It sucks to have to open amazon in a browser to buy kindle or audible books, but it’s great to not have to deal with multiple dodgy app stores, or sideloaded data harvesting malware. As a consumer I prefer these sets of trade offs for myself and my family’s pocket devices than the alternative. Why take that choice away?

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#919

Post by saagarjha » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:34 AM UTC

dwaite wrote: post #879

neop1x wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should be able to install alternatives. Microsoft was forced some time ago to give people alternatives to built-in apps so why Apple shouldn't. I would also like to see VP9 supported on iOS and alternative web engines in addition to WebKit/Safari!

Good news - VP9 is supported on the next major iOS/tvOS releases. Alternative web engines are a nice thought, but the reality is that the browser engine cannot be packaged as an "app", it is a new type of application sandboxing environment. Safari (and WebKit and JavaScriptCore) use significant elevated entitlements to be able to do things like control prompts to hardware features like location and NFC, JIT compile c…

Location access is an entitlement made available to all apps, though. The major roadblock is dynamic-codesigning, which Apple refused to grant to third-party applications.

Re: Apple just kicked Fortnite off the App Store

#920

Post by catdawg » Fri, Aug 14, 2020, 10:34 AM UTC

Just hypothetically here, what would the App Store look like if it didn't take a cut?

Let's say everything stays the same, obviously, Apple would earn less money but let's ignore that obvious impediment, I guess they would would care less about how much an app makes in revenue, and exclusively about the quality of it.

Would that be better overall for the consumer? Would it be awful for app developers, because Apple could be a lot more (than it already is) picky about what goes into the AppStore? It could create extreme rules that it doesn't care at all about relaxing, since whether a new app is in the store or not, makes no difference revenue wise for Apple.

Maybe they could finally properly tackle some predatory IAP practices, that I assume are still allowed due to the revenue they bring in.