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The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

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Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#901

Post by prottog »

rco8786 wrote: post #891
prottog wrote: post #882

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm doubling down because you haven't offered an explanation of what your counterfactual is. As best as I can guess, are implying that were something to be different, the outcomes will be different, whether that is that people who bust their ass will become truly wealthy (which again, you have not defined) or perhaps that people who don't bust their ass will also be better off. I want to know what that something is,…

I’m not sure why you could possibly want all of that information from me. My original response was about how “kids these days” expect “ass busting results without the ass busting”, and I was pointing out that that is definitely not the case with OP’s job offer of $25-30/hr plus overtime, which is the exact opposite…ass busting without the results. But if you must, Let’s say somewhere in the top 50% of asset holders i…

According to the Federal Reserve[0], the median household net worth (that is, the assets that a family holds minus its liabilities) in the US is $122k, which means that owning free and clear even a modest home in a modest area -- like in the life I've described -- would already put you at the 50th percentile or above.

Among households that hold at least one asset, to filter out those who don't own anything, the median sits at $228k. Again, that's a nice home in a modest area or a modest home in a nice area, even before the recent real estate craze. Or from another perspective, someone making $60k a year (full-time employment at $25-30 an hour with no raises ever, which is an unreasonable assumption) who works for 40 years and manages a slightly above-average (remember, ass-busting) savings rate[1] of 10% will have that by the end of their career. We can conservatively assume that by investing their savings in a broad-market index fund they can at least match inflation.

Which is to say, entering the top 50% of asset holders from below is by no means unreasonable even for someone who isn't making a cushy $400k a year working at a FAANG. It just won't be overnight and it will take some amount of busting ass.

Your perception of how wealthy the median person (or asset-holder) is may be skewed by what you observe in a presumably very wealthy location.

[0]: https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/files/scf20.pdf

[1]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#902

Post by stu432 »

nerdponx wrote: post #855
stu432 wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But universal healthcare is paid for by taxes on people who earn good money, which these people do. The costs being thrown around in this thread are about on par with the UK anyway.

I explained that in my post. The point is to distribute and dilute these costs consistently over time and across the population.

You miss the point. Universal payer is not the utopia you think it is. People at the bottom may pay less, but people at the top pay more, "distributing and diluting these costs". That results in relatively well earning professions paying high company and income taxes, resulting in identical fees for fitting a socket in the UK (a universal payer society) as the US (a look after yourself society). Ergo, you've shifted the money around but fundamentally haven't changed anything, you carpenter isn't going to work for minimum wage suddenly because his tax burden won't allow it.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#903

Post by rco8786 »

prottog wrote: post #901
rco8786 wrote: post #891

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure why you could possibly want all of that information from me. My original response was about how “kids these days” expect “ass busting results without the ass busting”, and I was pointing out that that is definitely not the case with OP’s job offer of $25-30/hr plus overtime, which is the exact opposite…ass busting without the results. But if you must, Let’s say somewhere in the top 50% of asset holders i…

According to the Federal Reserve[0], the median household net worth (that is, the assets that a family holds minus its liabilities) in the US is $122k, which means that owning free and clear even a modest home in a modest area -- like in the life I've described -- would already put you at the 50th percentile or above. Among households that hold at least one asset, to filter out those who don't own anything, the media…

I said "somewhere in the top 50%", not 50th percentile. I was being purposefully vague so that you wouldn't do exactly what you have done and try to pick apart whatever definition of wealth was brought forward. If you like, you can pretend that I said "90th" percentile exactly is the exact demarcation of wealth. Or take 50% as the mean and it's ~$750k net worth. Or take a definition of "poll 1,000 randomly selected Americans if your example is a wealthy person and take the majority vote". Go ahead and take those down also, if that's how you'd like to spend your time.

Even the "$100k" house your example uses does not get you to the median (you don't get to casually add 20%+ to the house value just to get to the median). And you're, again, still living in a tiny house in the poorest areas with the worst amenities, the worst healthcare, the worst education, the worst economic prospects for your children, the worst obesity, the worst of the opioid epidemic, etc, effectively zero disposable income, zero college savings, zero travel, crappy old used cars, thrift shop clothing, pinching every penny just to pay down your mortgage quickly and get to the 40-45th percentile of wealth statistically. Worth it? Not for me.

It's a perfectly "fine" life, if that's what you want. It does not meet a reasonable definition of wealth in the US.

You can stop any time.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#904

Post by brianwawok »

nik282000 wrote: post #759
WalterBright wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been running for 40 years, and lifting for 15. Lifting has virtually eliminated my back pain. Strengthening the muscles helps a lot in preventing injury. No, I'm not lifting 400 lbs. Weightlifters lift insane weights, does that compare to what physical laborers lift?

But do you run and lift for 40-60hrs a week for 40 years? If I did an hour or two of electrical work a day instead of 8 to 10 my knees would probably have lasted longer than 17 years.

Depends! People that train for Ironman average something like 20h a week over a year (some peak at closer to 40 during their race buildup)

But most of us are way less than that, more like 10 hours a week. And if you are careful your body rebuilds stronger each time.

My knees are not shot from running. In fact I’d wager they are in better health than a desk potatoe that never exercises.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#905

Post by brianwawok »

2devnull wrote: post #429
brianwawok wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a good analogy. If I stress my bone hard, it strengthens. This is why someone that runs has heavier / stronger leg bones compares to a coucher. On the car side, every time you bend a piece of metal it gets weaker. It cannot repair itself. It cannot get stronger from use.

No. Cumulative load wrecks you in the long run. Consider how many weightlifters end up with multiple back surgeries. They got stronger for awhile, then they couldn’t walk.

You are looking at the pointy end, people on roids and HGH that lift 8 hours a day.

Compare to someone that lifts for 1 hour 3x a week. He will have stronger bones and joints than either a desk potatoe (no stress = no buildup) or the tradesmen (too much stress without rest = failure)

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#906

Post by balls187 »

switch007 wrote: post #875
balls187 wrote: post #874

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The attitude towards work probably has more to do with social media influence, than it does apathy. At least in the US, policies have become much more friendly towards younger folks than they have ever been. Federal student loan forgiveness, LGBT+ anti discrimination policies, individual medical insurance exchanges, are a few off the top of my head. The cost of living and cost of education has far outpaced income gro…

But the young earn less. That’s a very weak attempt at justifying high “cost of living”. And what a euphemistic word that is. It’s the cost of greed, not the cost of living. Too many ills in this world are the result of older generations’ greed. And I could also say your opinion of gen z is also equally influenced by social media.

I'm assuming you're not from the US, right?

Cost of Living is a standard used in the US, and it's not uncommon for annual raises to, at the very least, include a "cost of living" adjustment.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#907

Post by Manuel_D »

viraptor wrote: post #892
Manuel_D wrote: post #876

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-rushed means more waiting, not less. Why would I pay extra for that?

You're missing the part where higher cost reduces your backlog, so there's lower waiting time overall. (I'm assuming there's backlog if the company is trying to rush jobs and allowing overtime)

As a client, I don't care if a contractor has one or a hundred jobs. If one contractor is providing the same quality job at the same price in shorter time, that's strictly better. There has to be a reason to justify higher costs. If that's not either higher quality, or faster time to completion, there is no reason to command a premium.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#908

Post by chx »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #819
chx wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union negotiates salaries and work conditions both. Even with union dues your salary will be higher and work conditions so much better. Let's look at ATC as an example: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/a... > Their work can be stressful because maximum concentration is required at all times. Night, weekend, and rotating shifts are common. Well, maybe there could be better agreements than r…

I'm not talking about a generic "unions are good" argument. I know why unions exist, the history behind them throughout much of the West, their ties to worker parties and socialism etc. I'm specifically wondering what about unionizing (or in this case, re-unionizing) makes it more palatable for these highly specialized roles to exist. Is your argument then that working conditions for folks like HVAC techs are poor en…

You seriously want me to dig up the stories on how everyone is mistreated? I already did for ATC. You can do your research for the rest. I am reasonable sure every worker in the US is mistreated.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#909

Post by stakhanov »

hinkley wrote: post #877
stakhanov wrote: post #816

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which will typically get you arrested, unless you know how to do it right. I don't think there are laws against trying to shoe your own horse and doing it badly if that's what you mean. I'm a horse owner who works as a software engineer for a living, and I'm so enraged by how much I have to pay the farrier and other horse-related tradespeople that it has very seriously crossed my mind, many times, to take the other…

That was a joke about stabbing horses with nails. OP did not say anything about hooves, thus illustrating the point that there are critical details a pro would know.

...ah, okay. Well what I was reacting to was the fact that stabbing your horse with nails is what will actually happen if you try to shoe your own horse and you do it badly, as the inner part of the hoof is "alive" just like other parts of the body and can definitely not accommodate any nails. So the difference between stabbing your horse with a nail and putting the nail where it belongs is something like 5mm, and you have to hit that while the horse (which may be 10x your weight) won't hold still. If it weren't for that minor detail, everybody would just shoe their own horse.

But you probably won't get arrested for attempting this and getting it wrong.

If you have a well-behaved horse and you take a course, like they have in those trade schools in the U.S., where they give you a hoof from a cadaver and just let you practice driving a nail into it 100 times, and then you do it a dozen times while getting feedback from a pro, then it seems quite doable. But those courses don't even exist in Germany, as the trade is that keen on preventing these kinds of skills from becoming too widespread.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#910

Post by AlwaysRock »

clnq wrote: post #693
AlwaysRock wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you have to go do it. I love working behind a computer. I sit in a chair. Waking up at 5am to go to a client site to do some physical labor 40+ hours a week for my entire life sounds like hell. Even if the money was incredible it would suck.

Perhaps it's a case of "the grass is always greener", but before I became a software engineer, I felt much healthier doing a physical job.

I do bjj 4 days a week with two of those days being on my lunch break, the other three days I walk my dog during lunch, I do 6 sets of push ups, squats, or pull ups on work days, and I using a standing desk in the morning. Just bought a little floor tredmill that I can walk on during meetings as well.

I would probably be in better shape if I was moving all day everyday but I'm pretty sure my body would start to break down as well. I know not everyone has as much freedom but if you work from home it isnt that hard to squeeze in a pretty decent amount of exercise during the work day.

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