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The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

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Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#851

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am once again unable to tell whether this is genuine or sarcastic capitalist bootlicking. This website has destroyed my brain.

The beauty of the ambiguity is that you know there's someone on this web site that is 100% serious and believes that all labour is capitalist exploitation. Then there is also someone that is 100% sarcastic and that if you look at society closely, that exchange is probably one of the least exploitative in present day society. I mean we take the healthiest demographic on the planet, force them to be sedentary for 8+ ho…

See, I read the sarcastic position and the genuine position in reverse to the way you did. Goddammit.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#852

"We need more tradespeople" seems to be an evergreen news article. My brother in law is an electrician. He is paid alright, enough to live on. But there are HUGE downsides. He does not receive health insurance. He does not get paid vacation. In order to match decent white-collar pay, he needs to work overtime. His company pushes hard to get jobs finished fast, causing people to cut safety corners. Many of his coworke…

Those "we need more X" news articles are the standard way for the owners of wealth to complain about high wages - and to encourage younger folks to pick those careers.

In state with occupational licensing for trades, they do have decent wages. In states without that licensing, hiring immigrant workers is the way to drive down wages/costs.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#853
I hire apprentice electricians starting at $80k/yr, journeymen are $120k+ (about 3 years after becoming apprentice). Or for $60k I can hire a guy who smokes meth with the customers neighbors

There's nobody in trades anymore, their wage increases far outpace inflation

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the other way around. Younger generations have discovered that the busting of the ass in and of itself does not lead to financial comfort or stability. At least going to college and working an office job kind of still holds that promise. Why stand 10 hours a day at a machine, when I can work 7 at my desk for better pay and better long-term prospects?

Living within your means leads to financial comfort and stability, no matter what you make. Millionaire next door etc

Sounds like the old avocado toast and lattes argument.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#855
post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the parent comment meant universal healthcare, you'd absolutely see the lack of health insurance premiums reflected in prices. As a contractor, it's definitely a chunk of my rate.

But universal healthcare is paid for by taxes on people who earn good money, which these people do. The costs being thrown around in this thread are about on par with the UK anyway.

I explained that in my post. The point is to distribute and dilute these costs consistently over time and across the population.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#856

Tradespeople will be the new software engineers in the late 2020s through 2030s. Enough that I'm considering leaving my cushy FAANG engineering manager job to become an electrician. On top of the huge supply shortage, consider that the majority of the U.S. housing stock was built during the Baby Boom suburbanization from 1950-1970, and that the average lifespan of a house's internal systems (plumbing, electrical) is…

Hey y'all, long time reader first time writer. The op is absolutely right that there's a large bill coming due. A lot of the conversation about our infrastructure has been in reference to the New deal projects and Eisenhower projects around the country. However, in addition to our increasingly fragile housing stock the largest transfer of wealth in history is set to happen at the same time these houses will change hands. A poster below commented that a few years of experience won't be enough to be pulling a multiple six figure income when that occurs but I disagree. In most states in the country 5 years is the amount of time necessary to enter a union and gain a master's license. From there you would have the licensure and expertise to start your own company, consult or find a high paying job in the trades. I also think that roboticization is not something that will occur until late in our lifetimes and likely only for new construction projects. I recently started a company in DC called The DC Contractor. I'm looking to expand this year and if there's anyone in the area who would be interested in connecting you can find me online, feel free to send me a message. I believe anyone that would truly find more satisfaction in the trades couldn't pick a better time to start learning the skills even if they aren't hard skills. i.e. learning how to operate a business,project management, financials, DOB regulations, gov regulations for federal projects etc... Could all be immensely valuable and there's a lot of room for creativity in the space. Fwiw, that's my two cents. Happy New Year.

Edit: seemed worth noting that my starting pay for any employee is around ~$25 an hour. Granted I live in a large metropolitan area but when I started doing this work 20 years ago $11 to $12 an hour was pretty standard entry level pay. That number is just to hire anyone that will show up consistently because the market has gotten so crazy in the last couple of years. I would pay considerably more for someone with the necessary skills to let me take a more hands off approach.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#857
post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, when I used to work on farms, the old guys were a lot healthier than most of the people I see in tech nowadays. Although, most of that work isn't unhealthily repetitive, like jack-hammering or something, so perhaps not a great example. But, use-it-or-lose-it is a real thing.

I'd believe it. The Amish are very healthy. https://time.com/5159857/amish-people-stay-healthy-in-old-ag...

Could one of the factors for the Amish be teamwork? Tradesmen are often competing with their peers and working very fast, sometimes too fast and at risk of injury. All of the documentaries I have seen watching the Amish work, they work as a team following the mantra slow and steady wins the race. They work hard, but as a group.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#858
post #845

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> low barrier of entry Low barrier of entry? For trades? I've always been under the impression that software engineering is one of the lowest barriers-of-entry jobs there is, while skilled trades are pretty difficult to get into. You can take web frontend dev bootcamp for a few weeks and probably land a job pretty quickly, if "any job at all" is the standard you're aiming for. Similarly, you can get licensed as a boo…

I've never personally seen a bootcamp graduate at my job. Everyone either has a STEM college degree that is definitely beyond the ability of the average tradesman, or has been self-taught since childhood age. I think that programming does require more problem solving skills than trades do (or bookkeeping) and the demographics reflect that. It also requires at least passable language skills to understand what you're s…

I was thinking more of legal barriers of entry you face when going into business for yourself rather than getting on someone's payroll.

You can do a web dev bootcamp, find clients who need websites, and just get started making websites and getting paid as a contractor (sole tradership). There is no legal hurdle, even the bootcamp is not legally required.

Similarly, you can go out and find businesses who need help with bookkeeping, and just start doing some bookkeeping and getting paid as a contractor. Where I live (in Germany), there is no legal hurdle, other than a few weeks of coursework with a test, as long as you don't do any year-end tax accounting.

If, however, you learn how to do horseshoeing (say someone teaches you on an informal basis), and you go out shoeing people's horses for money, you'll be in big trouble, legally. -- In the U.S. it's a 6-week trade school that you have to do, in Germany it's a 3-year apprenticeship. And the fact that these kinds of legal requirements differ so much country-by-country is a testament to how arbitrary they are.

...now, non-self-employed work is a whole other ball of wax, where there's clearly a problem of qualifications-inflation, and the required qualifications no longer bear any relationship to the skills that will actually be needed on the job.

> I've never personally seen a bootcamp graduate at my job.

Just as an employee at your company, or anywhere in the industry? If the former, then see above, what I wrote about qualifications-inflation. It also may be a reflection of the socioeconomic cluster you (respectively your company) is a part of.

Within my 13 years in software engineering, I've seen more than half a dozen companies from the inside, and I've come across many white collar executives without college degrees. Particularly, the company that I was with the longest and paid the best (a very recognizable brand on the web) had a CTO who hadn't gone to college and in fact had held no other jobs, prior to lucking into the employee #1 spot working for what turned out to be a hugely successful startup. Other example: I once worked with a retail insurance underwriting company where there didn't seem to be any college-trained Mathematicians as far as I could make out.

> > If you want to get into one of those, you better do it while you're young [...], because there's just no way you can afford it when you're a grown-up with grown-up responsibilities and financial burdens

> That is definitely true, but applies all the same to bookkeeping (which also requires an apprenticeship in my country) and college education.

The point I was making is that you either have to decide to do it when you're a kid, or the ship has sailed. The same is not true for being a software engineer.

I know lots of people who became software engineers after not having studied anything related to software engineering. E.g. I had a colleague working at a financial trading firm whose background was as an econometrician, who had never done any programming in college. While on the job, he gradually shifted from Excel, to picking up a bit of R on the job, to taking evening classes in C++ and immediately applying what he learned on the job, to being a C++ developer.

Have I ever heard of a farrier who didn't apprentice as a farrier when they were a kid? I haven't. I know someone who shifted from being a carpenter to being a roofer, but even this is something that they did when they were young, and there are special privileges implying they didn't have to do a full three years on the second apprenticeship. If the 3-year apprenticeship-requirement is legally fully in effect, barring you from entering the trade, it's a very difficult hurdle to clear.

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#859
post #356
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That much-repeated factoid is the result of sloppy, clickbait reporting of a lousy survey. People were asked "If you had a sudden $500 expense, how would you pay for it?" with options like ["cash", "checking account", "credit card", "pay-day loan", "borrow from family"] and unsurprisingly many people said "credit card". This then got repeated and reported as "Americans can't pay $500 without going into debt".

Yeah, would like to see the source of that. My generation puts everything on rewards cards even if they have no debt; so of course $500 is going on a card first lol.

That statistic originates from this report by the Federal Reserve from 2014.[0] In the report they define it as "paying for it entirely using cash, money currently in their checking/savings account, or on a credit card that they would pay in full at their next statement (referred to here as “cash or its functional equivalent”)."

[0] https://www.federalreserve.gov/econresdata/2014-report-econo...

Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z

#860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more are these high school grads earning than you? Is it not sufficient to incentivize you to do what they do, or do you not possess the “little bit of management skill” it would take? Or is it something else? I suspect the volatility is much higher for possessing the skill to be able to “cash out” $30M+ regularly, compared to going to a nice undergrad school, getting a job at a prestigious big company, then…

Laziness on my part. I'm old and comfortable, and it takes real work for 10 years to get there. And of course it requires technical knowledge learned over those ten years! But if I had worked as hard as I did earlier in my career at a trade business (remember - much lower risk than a startup as the market is very well known and demand omnipresent), I would be much richer now.

So, it sounds a bit like Selection Bias--

The guys who create these companies you purchase have a local a network in the industry-- That is to say: The guys who create & run the companies are able to find labor.

This article is about a labor shortage...

Apparently a few tradesmen are able to recruit other tradesmen, and perhaps pay them well, in the right geographic locations where there are enough skilled tradesmen (or train-able interested apprentices) to hire.

But it sounds like the vast majority of Tradesmen company founders are unable to find labor.

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