Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin) • Hacker News Board

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#91

Post by hga » Wed, Jun 10, 2015, 11:54 PM UTC

almaIV wrote: post #81

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

"most modern tumblerites aren't willing to get in the streets with a bandanna and a baseball bat" Probably because this is a really stupid course of action to begin with, independent of tumblr. Using baseball bats to reinforce your political views seems like a great idea until your opponents show up with guns. Which means you, now, have to show up with guns, and so on, until you're a full-on terrorist group. Well, th…

Using baseball bats to reinforce your political views seems like a great idea until your opponents show up with guns.

I have to wonder if this dangerous person lives in the US, or at least the true US, the 2/3rds of which allow concealed carry. I marvel at how the National Socialist Movement and some "White Nationalists" thought it wise to meet in New Jersey and Illinois, respectively, where and when it was illegal to carry concealed (not groups of smart people, it would seem :-). Hmmmm, for that matter, Ohio is in one way the worst state in the union for self-defense, because the burden of proof is on the person claiming it. (These incidents mentioned at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Racist_Action)

Try that shit in the state of Missouri where Strange Loop is meeting and you'll very possibly get legally shot. Counterwise the Nazis were greatly aided by prior Weimar efforts at gun control, which they of course reinforced once they started getting formal power.

In fact, all these actions by the left in the US strike me as extremely unwise, for in the many possibilities of "this will not end well", those of a very well armed population putting paid to their pretensions should be quite prominent in their minds.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#92

Post by sdfghjkl34567 » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 12:04 AM UTC

saryant wrote: post #80

blackbagboys wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for confirming my suspicion that if you scratch the surface, all political extremists are motivated by the same all-consuming, destructive nihilism.

That one clearly does, hence the throwaway. (edit: parent edited post, this no longer makes sense. Original was about revolutionaries never expecting the guillotine to fall on their own neck)

Yeah, that wouldn't make very much sense. Far more revolutionaries have been on the guillotine than behind it.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#93

Post by sdfghjkl34567 » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 12:08 AM UTC

almaIV wrote: post #81

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

"most modern tumblerites aren't willing to get in the streets with a bandanna and a baseball bat" Probably because this is a really stupid course of action to begin with, independent of tumblr. Using baseball bats to reinforce your political views seems like a great idea until your opponents show up with guns. Which means you, now, have to show up with guns, and so on, until you're a full-on terrorist group. Well, th…

Do you think that white nationalists don't take guns to their protests and marches? Do you think when the KKK meets, they're unarmed?

It's hilarious to me that you seem to think leftists could set off an arms race.

Also, what do you think the black panthers, weather underground, etc., were?

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#94

Post by sdfghjkl34567 » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 12:14 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #85

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

> But if I could flip a switch and make every man feel the persistent, gnawing fear that a woman has of men, I would in a heartbeat. Would it not be better to work towards nobody feeling such fear? > I'm also happy that these people are achieving real victories ... their friends ... are campaigning against some law that will inevitably pass Once again championing (any) change itself over sane outcomes. Oppressive law…

>Would it not be better to work towards nobody feeling such fear?

But that isn't the hypothetical. Do you understand the concept?

Certainly if I had a faeries & unicorns switch I'd hit that as well, but we don't always have the options we'd like.

In the meantime, if it's possible to make fascist programmers afraid for their careers, that's great for me. It means fascist movements are disrupted before they can even form. God knows leftists have been afraid for long enough.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#95

Post by hga » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 12:17 AM UTC

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #93

almaIV wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"most modern tumblerites aren't willing to get in the streets with a bandanna and a baseball bat" Probably because this is a really stupid course of action to begin with, independent of tumblr. Using baseball bats to reinforce your political views seems like a great idea until your opponents show up with guns. Which means you, now, have to show up with guns, and so on, until you're a full-on terrorist group. Well, th…

Do you think that white nationalists don't take guns to their protests and marches? Do you think when the KKK meets, they're unarmed? It's hilarious to me that you seem to think leftists could set off an arms race. Also, what do you think the black panthers, weather underground, etc., were?

But venues for anti-fascist violence most certainly include "protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar", or so you seem to be saying, and most certainly per history in the US (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Racist_Action#History). But as I noted elsewhere, the non-protest/march incidents happened in viciously anti-gun states (although that's no longer true for Illinois), where those using guns to defend themselves from hammers and baseball bats would have gone to jail as well.

Plus, if what you say was true, can you point to some incidents where your side actually, you know, got shot for their troubles? I mean your violent side, not the pre-Black Power civil rights period of this.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#96

Post by anon23457 » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 12:20 AM UTC

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

tjradcliffe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do in fact fear the "social justice" crowd and their ability to mess with people and their careers when they don't follow the party line This is something I'd love see SJW's here react to. How do you feel about the fact that you have created a climate of fear amongst people who disagree with you? Would you prefer convincing them of the correctness of your position, but willing to accept that at least by making th…

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

The outrageousness of this comment brings to mind something I often wonder when I see modern online leftism: if a rightist were to post a comment in an attempt to discredit leftism by making it seem as evil and destructive as possible, it's not clear how he could top this.

Modern online leftism is indistinguishable from a rightist failing an Ideological Turing Test.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#97

Post by almaIV » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 12:29 AM UTC

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #93

almaIV wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"most modern tumblerites aren't willing to get in the streets with a bandanna and a baseball bat" Probably because this is a really stupid course of action to begin with, independent of tumblr. Using baseball bats to reinforce your political views seems like a great idea until your opponents show up with guns. Which means you, now, have to show up with guns, and so on, until you're a full-on terrorist group. Well, th…

Do you think that white nationalists don't take guns to their protests and marches? Do you think when the KKK meets, they're unarmed? It's hilarious to me that you seem to think leftists could set off an arms race. Also, what do you think the black panthers, weather underground, etc., were?

Were? The black panthers still exist. They have nothing to do with people calling themselves "anti-fascist" though.

"Do you think that white nationalists don't take guns to their protests and marches?"

I think the kind of person who talks about carrying around baseball bats isn't going to go to these marches.

What you think is hilarious is on you and your weird sense of humor. If you go to a meeting with baseball bats, eventually, the people you're disrupting are going to bring weapons stronger than baseball bats.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#98

Post by almaIV » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 12:31 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #85

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responding under a throwaway. I've been involved in anti-racist/anti-fascist work, either directly or on the periphery, for about ten years at this point. This takes many forms, from street confrontations with fascists, protests at book readings and other events, and also disrupting fascist conferences and similar. Anti-Racist Action is the organization that has developed the most tactical and strategic influence in…

> But if I could flip a switch and make every man feel the persistent, gnawing fear that a woman has of men, I would in a heartbeat. Would it not be better to work towards nobody feeling such fear? > I'm also happy that these people are achieving real victories ... their friends ... are campaigning against some law that will inevitably pass Once again championing (any) change itself over sane outcomes. Oppressive law…

"Would it not be better to work towards nobody feeling such fear?"

When you ask questions like this, you give the respondent authority, because it is worded in a way that gives the possibility that the respondent might say something intelligent in response.

There is no such possibility here.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#99

Post by nemo » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 12:31 AM UTC

csense wrote: post #84

nemo wrote: post #13

While Moldbug holds hideous political views, if the talk is on tech. and doesn't overlap him advocating hideous things, then this is akin to the old Hollywood blackballing, the excuse for dropping him was pathetic, and I agree that promoting a culture of free speech must be a core value of a liberal society. I'm pretty far-left (though more liberal than leftist), and found the black-and-white leftist-bashing in the a…

> while pretending we're all some monoculture, which is ludicrous Actually, progressives do seem to be relatively monocultural when it comes to, as the article says toward the end, "tolerating everything except the outgroup." Either that, or the intolerant faction(s) are very dominant and end up getting their way quite a lot. As well as the examples cited in the article, another good example is Brendan Eich being for…

"The left" is an umbrella term for all kinds of causes that don't all share the same concerns, values, or goals, while "progressive" is basically a replacement term picked up once right-wing propagandists had poisoned "liberal" and "left" enough that some people gave up using them (which was a dumb move IMO). Environmentalists, labor rights activists, gay rights activists, and anti-war activists fit under the umbrella but often have little in common, and can have stark disagreements. I'm going to guess you don't identify as someone on the left, and so you get your information about what's happening from filtered sources rather than spending time paying attention to the debates, bickering, and disagreements that various sorts of left-wingers have, rather than taking a detailed at what's actually thought or discussed. I understand, I ignore Tea Partiers, though I also try not to claim they are a monoculture, since I know I don't really know much besides what the latest staggeringly stupid thing one of them said was, which is certainly not representative. That's the problem with Internet echo-chambers, they radically warp perspective by limiting what information you see as well as bias its presentation, and give an reductionist illusion of some single entity when there are many diverse factors in play.

Alternately, you could just look at the actual cases the ACLU takes, which often enough support people and causes that aren't darlings of some faction or another on the left.

For the record I was against Eich's firing (and know a number of leftists who were similarly against), I donate to the ACLU and the Sierra Club, and used to be an anti-war protester long ago. I also am enough of an exception to your generalization that you might want to reconsider your stereotype.

Re: Two Kinds of Freedom of Speech (or Strangeloop vs. Curtis Yarvin)

#100

Post by mindslight » Thu, Jun 11, 2015, 12:35 AM UTC

sdfghjkl34567 wrote: post #94

mindslight wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if I could flip a switch and make every man feel the persistent, gnawing fear that a woman has of men, I would in a heartbeat. Would it not be better to work towards nobody feeling such fear? > I'm also happy that these people are achieving real victories ... their friends ... are campaigning against some law that will inevitably pass Once again championing (any) change itself over sane outcomes. Oppressive law…

>Would it not be better to work towards nobody feeling such fear? But that isn't the hypothetical. Do you understand the concept? Certainly if I had a faeries & unicorns switch I'd hit that as well, but we don't always have the options we'd like. In the meantime, if it's possible to make fascist programmers afraid for their careers, that's great for me. It means fascist movements are disrupted before they can even fo…

You came up with that specific hypothetical and it inherently carries your framework. It is set up as a zero sum interaction where everyone needs to be brought down rather than lifted up. But fighting injustice with more injustice is a race to the bottom.

By your usage, I presume you're using definition #1 of http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascist even though you are not capitalizing it. If it is possible to make Fascist programmers afraid for their careers, then Fascists cannot possibly wield much power.

On the other hand, the results of mob justice look an awful lot like a distributed implementation of fascism definition #2 - how is it not appropriate to describe, for example, a summary firing for political views as such?