Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2 • Hacker News Board

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#91

Post by higherpurpose » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:36 PM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #42

I would love to here the inside story here. Based on my experience with Win7 and Win8, I expect that Win10 would have crawled (or not at all worked) with the slower CPU and smaller memory. My guess would be that the Raspberry Pi 2 is, in fact, a Microsoft initiative rather than an RPi Foundation initiative - and that Microsoft have actually contributed significant funds to make this possible. Either way, that is good…

They seem to say Windows 10 is essentially the embedded version here, so maybe just the core or something. If it was the full desktop version, I'm pretty sure it would struggle on it.

Since it's ARM, you also won't see any of the "full programs" you see on x86 platforms. Just some simple mobile apps.

I don't think it's a "Microsoft initiative". Many RPi competitors have already moved to quad-core Cortex A7 chips, so it's quite predictable. But I'm actually quite disppointed by this move from the RPI Foundation. They should've skipped straight to Cortex A53. Now devs will have to support ARMv6, ARMv7 and a year or two from now ARMv8 as well.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#92

Post by trentnelson » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:37 PM UTC

castell wrote: post #16

Next step, Microsoft announces FX!32 for Win10 ARM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FX!32 FX!32 is a software emulator program that allows Win32 programs built for the Intel x86 instruction set to execute on DEC Alpha-based systems running Windows NT.

Hey, I could put Windows 10 on my DEC^WHP^WCompaq ES40!

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#93

Post by harywilke » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:41 PM UTC

watty wrote: post #60

nkuttler wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to act as a platform for tinkering and learning about computers. Maybe, but Linux just seems more convenient. I mean, can you install gcc, golang, nodejs, python, ruby, ghc, lua (...) on windows with a single command? And all the other tools you might want to use, like editors, databases? And you will never know if they want to do kernel-level coding if they don't h…

I completely disagree. I used Ubuntu for a year and I spent more time fixing things or trying to do things in the OS than I have in all other operating systems combined. My nephew tried to install Ubuntu on his new build and hit brick wall after brick wall trying to install the OS and Minecraft. It simply hasn't gotten easy enough and I'm afraid it's too late now. I don't see a comeback for linux. http://www.google.c…

I'm not sure that Google Trends is a valid metric for this conclusion. It shows both Windows and MacOS X have declining trends as well. Apparently iOS is doing gangbusters in Cambodia and Android is all the rage in Indonesia.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#94

Post by trentnelson » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:44 PM UTC

ekr wrote: post #66

microtonal wrote: post #37

I am usually not the one to blow the free software horn (being a staunch believer of non-copyleft licenses such as the Apache License) and the geek in me likes this announcement. I also don't hold a grudge against Windows, I think it is a fine system for most people. However, Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves. Althou…

Now, while legally, you are perfectly right, Windows is as close as ever, it's not actually that hard to look under the hood. I work as a Windows device driver developer, and sometimes I need to reverse engineer some of the internals, and the source code from WRK is easily available on the internet : ( http://gate.upm.ro/os/LABs/Windows_OS_Internals_Curriculum_R... ). These are sources from 2005-2006 timeframe, but t…

> http://gate.upm.ro/os/LABs/Windows_OS_Internals_Curriculum_R...

Oh my. Aaaaand, mirrored. There's also this, which seems about the same level of should-this-actually-be-publicly-available: https://github.com/njdragonfly/WinNT4

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#95

Post by trentnelson » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:47 PM UTC

nkuttler wrote: post #53

nmeofthestate wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Windows seems very much contrary to the goal of the Raspberry Pi: providing a device for children to tinker with and educate themselves" "Windows is closed as ever" Are these kids hacking on the Linux kernel or something? Of course not. They will be using some app/language running on the OS. They don't need access to the OS source to do that. Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to act as a platform for…

> Seems to me Windows is a perfectly open enough OS to act as a platform for tinkering and learning about computers. Maybe, but Linux just seems more convenient. I mean, can you install gcc, golang, nodejs, python, ruby, ghc, lua (...) on windows with a single command? And all the other tools you might want to use, like editors, databases? And you will never know if they want to do kernel-level coding if they don't h…

> And you will never know if they want to do kernel-level coding if they don't have access to the kernel.

Windows actually has pretty phenomenal support for kernel driver development (https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff...).

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#96

Post by morganvachon » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:48 PM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #86

morganvachon wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A future in which Windows becomes popular on mobile/embedded devices is likely a future with more binary blobs, more OS-locked hardware, and fewer opportunities for those people who do want to hack on kernel code. I just can't agree with that. F/OSS fan that I am, I still think the same opportunities will exist whether Windows runs on a particular piece of hardware or not. After all, GNU/Linux and BSD have flourish…

FreeBSD has "flourished"? I seem to remember only two years ago before Christmas they were begging for donations or they will close shop. Linux and FreeBSD/OpenBSD certainly hasn't "flourished" on users' PCs either, which is the above commenter's point.

I didn't see anything in the parent's comment about GNU/Linux or FreeBSD on desktop PCs, nor was I talking about it on desktop PCs. The Raspberry Pi has always been meant as a learning device, a maker's toolkit, a base for building something other than a boring desktop PC. The fact that it now has the power to be a desktop PC doesn't mean that's all it will ever be.

One definition (the one I was using) of "flourish" is "to develop rapidly and successfully". I stand by that description; GNU/Linux and the BSDs have seen steady improvement and rapid development surges over the past few decades. If you're claiming otherwise, I'd say look at the server statistics across the Internet. Look at mobile phone operating systems. Look anywhere but the desktop, and you'll see Free and Open Source solutions far outstripping any offering from Microsoft.

I say, welcome to the party Microsoft. Again, one more channel for learning should be welcomed, not shunned because of old prejudices.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#97

Post by noselasd » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:50 PM UTC

nkuttler wrote: post #68

watty wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. I used Ubuntu for a year and I spent more time fixing things or trying to do things in the OS than I have in all other operating systems combined. My nephew tried to install Ubuntu on his new build and hit brick wall after brick wall trying to install the OS and Minecraft. It simply hasn't gotten easy enough and I'm afraid it's too late now. I don't see a comeback for linux. http://www.google.c…

It's unfortunate that you apparently had bad experiences with Ubuntu, but this thread is about development tools, not installing third party games from external sources. Yes, if you want to game, windows seems like a more convenient choice, nobody disputes that.

This isn't just related to 3. party games.

I've seen and helped people that hit these brick walls everywhere, whether it's installing the OS itself, a compiler, accessing a thumb drive, or whatever other task they want to accomplish.

These are things that may be incredibly trivial for us that's comfortable in this environment, but a brick wall for others.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#98

Post by beagle3 » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:53 PM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #91

beagle3 wrote: post #42

I would love to here the inside story here. Based on my experience with Win7 and Win8, I expect that Win10 would have crawled (or not at all worked) with the slower CPU and smaller memory. My guess would be that the Raspberry Pi 2 is, in fact, a Microsoft initiative rather than an RPi Foundation initiative - and that Microsoft have actually contributed significant funds to make this possible. Either way, that is good…

They seem to say Windows 10 is essentially the embedded version here, so maybe just the core or something. If it was the full desktop version, I'm pretty sure it would struggle on it. Since it's ARM, you also won't see any of the "full programs" you see on x86 platforms. Just some simple mobile apps. I don't think it's a "Microsoft initiative". Many RPi competitors have already moved to quad-core Cortex A7 chips, so…

Only if they want top performance.

They mention on the raspberry pi blog that for now, the official userland is going to stay ARMv6, and through this year they will consider how to provide ARMv7 userland if at all.

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#99

Post by jbandela1 » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:53 PM UTC

I think this is awesome. For all the people that are complaining about not being open source and not friendly to hackers, the truth is probably most people that program Raspberry are not even using a native compiled language but are using Python. The people that want to hack on a kernel, can install Linux.

I am really excited about the prospect of Microsoft enabling writing and debugging for the Pi using Visual Studio. They already have the feature for android in the Visual Studio 2015 Preview[1] and making it work for Raspberry Pi on running Windows should be easy. With an excellent development environment and debugger, I think interest in C/C++ programming for the Pi will be increased as it will be more accessible.

[1] http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/12/05/developing...

Re: Windows 10 for Raspberry Pi 2

#100

Post by reidrac » Mon, Feb 02, 2015, 12:55 PM UTC

benn_88 wrote: post #79

Note: Windows 10 on Pi 2 will be an IoT platform, not a desktop OS. You'll develop your app in Visual Studio on a Windows PC and deploy it to the Pi. Raspbian will continue to be the main supported OS. - Ben from Raspberry Pi

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not familiar with Microsoft programs and I didn't know what "IoT platform" was (in fact, didn't know that IoT was "Internet of Things").