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Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

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Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#91

The essential problem here is that we're still talking about men telling women what they need to do. Because, hey it's their problem. Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do. Slavery wasn't an African person's fault. Xenophobia isn't a problem for foreigners to sort out. There is nothing wrong with realising that we have a privilege over another group in society and making efforts to become…

> PS: Can someone explain the downvote?

I didn't downvote you, but since you made a PS, a PPS, and a PPPS about it I would suggest you read HN's Guidelines[1], specifically: "Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading."

Some people are going to disagree with what you say - it's really not worth worrying about.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It implies no such thing.

Just so I understand: what DOES the statement imply? Think of me as mentally deficient here and explain it like you'd explain it to an 8 year old.

It implies only that he wants to see men and women paid equally for equal performance. There's no particular reason to think that he would achieve this by lowering the salaries of better-paid employees (where better pay was not correlated with superior performance) rather than by increasing the salary of worse-paid employees (likewise).

If he's smart, he'd engage an outside auditor to measure employee productivity and how well it correlates with salaries, then raise the pay of any group that wturned out to be systematically disadvantaged.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#93
post #48

The essential problem here is that we're still talking about men telling women what they need to do. Because, hey it's their problem. Let's just get it clear, it is all about what we (men) need to do. Slavery wasn't an African person's fault. Xenophobia isn't a problem for foreigners to sort out. There is nothing wrong with realising that we have a privilege over another group in society and making efforts to become…

First, when you say, "slavery wasn't an African person's fault", I have to assume you are talking about Slavery in recent American history and not Slavery as a thing throughout history. Humankind is at fault there because almost every race and culture did it at some point. Second, if I understand it correctly, I think maybe people downvoted you (not me) because your statement implies (however unintended) that without…

> Making the statement a bit leaner, it could be interpreted as, "Without men doing it for them, women cant close the gap". Which is all kinds of incorrect.

Comments like the last line there are what I [despite being a male who genuinely feels there should be more women in tech] find extremely frustrating.

If we [men] do nothing we're accused of not caring and/or defending the status quo. If we try and help we get accused of suggesting women are incapable of doing it themselves.

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what you think of Ben Horowitz's "How to Minimize Politics in Your Company"[1]. He gives the specific example of an employee asking for a raise; he argues that responding by giving them a raise, even if it's reasonable, rewards behavior that has little to do with their job performance, which has undesirable secondary consequences. He says that the right way to deal with it is to have a good, regular, and…

The company I spoke of did have a yearly review process, I also waited for that yearly review to come up before I objected to the pathetic raises which barely tracked inflation. When one starts out at entry level, one should quickly gain significant raises commensurate with ones skills and abilities. This company clearly tried to get away with doing as little as possible, I also happened to know that senior software…

Thanks for sharing your experiences. It does sound like the first company's "review" process was more like something they could point to and claim to be fair to deflect complaints, and less like an appropriate reward-allocation system. And given that, I would agree with your characterization of "telling you to wait" and such as a stalling tactic.

If the system were better, though--say, reviews every six or three months, and you saw people who did good work getting raises and bonuses, mediocre performances leading to stagnant pay, new hires' pay quickly reaching what might be called their "market rate"--then I suspect you'd feel differently. Though I suppose that if you thought the outcome was fair, you wouldn't make a complaint in the first place.

I'm thinking one good way for a manager to respond to a request for a raise would be to conduct a performance review of all employees on his team, and give raises to any who were found to deserve them. Unless that had already been done within the last, say, three months.

(Here's a case I heard about from the U.S. International Math Olympiad team. For background, with a series of contests they select the top 12 high school students from the nation, which become the "black" group at an olympiad training camp, and they give these students a test to determine 6 team members and 2 alternates. They also take 24 students in grade 11 or below into a "blue" group, and 24 more from 9th grade into a "red" group. Now, one brilliant kid had made it into the "black" group and onto the IMO team as a 9th grader, winning a silver medal. The following year, he did relatively badly on the contest and "only" made it into the blue group. The organizers knew he was probably among the best there and should probably be on the team, but they had to find a "fair" way to do it... so they administered the team selection test to all students in both the "black" and "blue" groups. The kid made it onto the team and again won a silver medal for the U.S.)

Re: Microsoft CEO says women need not ask for raise, should trust system

#95

This is horrible advice, men and women both must push for a raise, companies will absolutely under no circumstances just give away raises because "it's the right thing to do". Case in point, I am a white male. When I started working at a company over a decade ago I also started at the same time as another white male. I started at $55k, he started at $52k I negotiated for an additional $3k from the start. The first ye…

I'm curious what you think of Ben Horowitz's "How to Minimize Politics in Your Company"[1]. He gives the specific example of an employee asking for a raise; he argues that responding by giving them a raise, even if it's reasonable, rewards behavior that has little to do with their job performance, which has undesirable secondary consequences. He says that the right way to deal with it is to have a good, regular, and…

>I wonder what you think about what the company should do

Very simple: give the raise that was asked for, or get ready to find someone else for the position. It's the same decision to make, whether they have some kind of process to do that automatically or not.

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