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A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

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Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#91

Post by lutusp »

[deleted] wrote: post #80
6nne wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have this a bit wrong. If ability is normally distributed for a given sex (and the mean of the ability of the same), then it is true that there would be more above-average male programmers than female programmers - just as there are more male programmers than female programmers at any skill level. If you are provided a skilled programmer, they are most likely male. And if you are provided any programmer, they are…

[deleted]

> This is what I meant. Given a skilled programmer, it's more likely to be a male.

That might have been what you meant, but it isn't what you said. You said:

> Then we can conclude that there are more male programmers that are above this mean.

Not as a percentage of their cohort, which is the only rational way of expressing this idea.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#92

Post by tedunangst »

gaylemcd wrote: post #70
tedunangst wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

William Poundstone, author of how would you move mt Fuji, is not a programmer, so that's not entirely surprising.

And his book isn't on programming interviews.

OK, fine. The next two Amazon books I get for "programming interview", "Elements of Programming Interviews" and "Programming Interviews Exposed", both have three authors each. In both cases, only one of the authors is actually employed as a programmer. The others include an EE professor, a radiologist and two executives. The field is rife with non programming authors.

"I wrote a book about programming interviews" does not signal to me that you are, in fact, a programmer.

I am happy to believe Gayle is a programmer, but I wouldn't use her book as a credential to support that claim.

(And I just realized that I'm replying to Gayle. I didn't read your username before posting. oops. The "you" above wasn't meant to be directed at you personally.)

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#93

Post by gaylemcd »

troupe wrote: post #33

There are many stereotypes that go along with being a programmer that are negative. There are stereotypes that go along with being a recruiter that are positive. While gender may have something to do with people thinking she is a recruiter it may not be the main factor. If you meet someone who is well spoken, well dressed, writes books on how to interview, knows how to talk about code, etc. might there be a greater c…

Sure. And then if someone's talking about binary trees, dynamic programming, depth first search, object oriented programming, don't you think you'd conclude "was or used to be a programmer"?

Again THIS was the example. Stop constructing straw mans.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#94

Post by gaylemcd »

trynumber9 wrote: post #81
gaylemcd wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And his book isn't on programming interviews.

It is more or less a collection of puzzles used in programming interviews (in that particular book, at Microsoft). He has another titled "Are You Smart Enough to Work at Google?" Similar concept, both focused on programming interview puzzles.

No, they're actually not focused on programming interviews. Those sorts of puzzles aren't asked in programming interviews.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#95

Post by lutusp »

[deleted] wrote: post #76
MrScruff wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand your argument. Are you suggesting that because there are more male programmers in total and hence more male programmers that are 'above average', that a randomly selected male candidate is statistically more likely to be 'above average' than a randomly selected female candidate? If so that would be incorrect.

[deleted]

> There are more males above average then females who are above average.

You have dropped the qualifier "programmers", also if you hadn't done that, you aren't adjusting for population sizes, therefore you have left the realm of rational discourse.

As to males versus females, adjusted for population size, they're equal (and this is a statistic, not a popular PC pronouncement). As to male programmers versus female programmers, without specific data but knowing that women are better at calculation, we can safely conclude that their population-adjusted abilities are either equal or contradict your implied thesis.

The supreme irony of this conversation is that, if you were any good at calculation, you would see the systematic error in your claims. There's a large element of self-reference here.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#96

Post by dragonwriter »

possibilistic wrote: post #14
oldmanjay wrote: post #4

if you think you can solve the problems of people being assholes, you haven't yet accepted that someone considers you an asshole too.

Are you sure that reverse mapping is universal? I was going to go for a few anecdotal examples of people I would decidedly consider as counter-evidence to your claim: the Dalai Lama, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa, ... Then I realized that you're probably right. :(

I still occasionally run into people who refer to Dr. King as a Communist agitator (a sibling comment addressed the others).

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#97

Post by gaylemcd »

tedunangst wrote: post #92
gaylemcd wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And his book isn't on programming interviews.

OK, fine. The next two Amazon books I get for "programming interview", "Elements of Programming Interviews" and "Programming Interviews Exposed", both have three authors each. In both cases, only one of the authors is actually employed as a programmer. The others include an EE professor, a radiologist and two executives. The field is rife with non programming authors. "I wrote a book about programming interviews" doe…

It's hardly rife with non-programming authors.

Elements of Programming Interviews: authors include an algorithms professor, a software engineer, and an engineer/CTO.

Programming Interviews Exposed: authors include software engineer, a CEO & VP Technology, and a radiologist. (Note that this book was written a long time ago. The radiologist probably was a programmer at the time.)

Ace the Programming Interview: software developer

Data Structures and Algorithms Made Easy: software developer

Out of 9 authors (including myself), 8 are/were software developers or something else very, very deep in technology. Possibly all 9.

Notably, zero are/were recruiters.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#98

Post by gaylemcd »

cowls wrote: post #37

So her talk was on tech interviews and someone thought she was a recruiter? Doesn't seem that big a stretch...

The talk covered binary trees, breadth first search, dynamic programming, etc. It wasn't focused on fluffy topics.

It'd be pretty unlikely to hear a recruiter talk at such a technical level.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#99

Post by yummyfajitas »

gaylemcd wrote: post #90
yummyfajitas wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not use that page? The link is buried in the "writing" dropdown. To even find the link I had to "view source", which I only did after you pointed it out. I went to your homepage, and "programmer" is just a small piece of the subtitle. I look at your first 6 panels, 4 of which (the leftmost 4) are about recruiter/interview stuff, 1 is programming, and 1 is "other". I scroll down to your blog and books, and everyth…

... but that wasn't the situation described. This isn't about someone going to my webpage - or to a particular subpage - and concluding "recruiter". This is about someone talking to me AFTER A TALK ABOUT CODING and starting a sentence with, "So when you were a recruiter at Google, ..."

On your site, you advertise that you give talks on HR and recruiting and every talk listed is on that topic. To be clear, "Cracking the coding interview" is a recruiting/HR talk even if coding is involved.

I wasn't there. I can't rule out the possibility that you a) didn't list this talk on your site, b) discussed a completely different topic than all your other listed talks and c) convey a completely different impression than your online persona.

But I hope you can understand why I, and many others, find this claim a bit implausible.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#100

Post by yummyfajitas »

gaylemcd wrote: post #98
cowls wrote: post #37

So her talk was on tech interviews and someone thought she was a recruiter? Doesn't seem that big a stretch...

The talk covered binary trees, breadth first search, dynamic programming, etc. It wasn't focused on fluffy topics. It'd be pretty unlikely to hear a recruiter talk at such a technical level.

You are not the only recruiter with a CS degree.
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