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The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

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Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#91
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think automation will happen sooner than we expect. 5-8 years seems likely to me. There is a hurdle with interstate trucking, where some states will lag behind in allowing it and providing the required bureaucratic support. But it is already technologically possible, if not yet a fully developed product. It just takes one company to get it allowed in one state and start doing it, the others will follow. Self drivin…

Parking shouldn't be a difficult task for a self-driving truck; but I suspect there will be a 'driver' along for the ride well after the task is mostly automated, just to deal with exceptional circumstances (eg. flash flood has made road impassable in some way the automated truck cannot deal with) and also to act as a security guard so nobody robs the robo-truck.

I was thinking about this. Straightforward parking is easy to automate. With big-rig parking there are a lot of really variable situations around loading bays. Often ramps and poles and dumpsters that could potentially roll around. I think of a lot of suburban shopping complexes in the middle of residential areas where neighborhood kids may be playing in the lot. So yes, I could see parking needing to be human-supervised. Though not necessarily even needing to be by someone in the truck. Perhaps just by someone at the receiving area. Probably an employee of the receiving bay who has a special license. When the truck arrives they have to "authorize" the parking, which acknowledges they inspected the the loading area and will watch the truck perform docking.

Whether there is someone in the truck at all times is a hard prediction. I also think that these trucks will have remote operation override, which was mentioned elsewhere on this thread (even as an alternative to / cultural introduction to / slippery slope for - full automation). Remote operation is the ideal solution for any kind of exception, short of failure of the remote operation system :P

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#92
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think automation will happen sooner than we expect. 5-8 years seems likely to me. There is a hurdle with interstate trucking, where some states will lag behind in allowing it and providing the required bureaucratic support. But it is already technologically possible, if not yet a fully developed product. It just takes one company to get it allowed in one state and start doing it, the others will follow. Self drivin…

My impression from riding along with my parents is that every day is filled with mostly improvisation. From dealing with bad, aggressive drivers who will get you and themselves killed, to rapidly changing road and weather conditions, to widely disparate entrances and loading docks, inaccurate GPS, etc. it just seems like the times that the self-driving would benefit are so infrequent with regular cross-country drivin…

Interesting. Yes I can imagine it being exception after exception. The liable party point is definitely an interesting factor. I guess it would be arranged by contract to flow through to the company providing the automation system or the trucks themselves. Not that the distribution company wouldn't have responsibilities in the event of an accident they would otherwise have figured a way out of, and other new diligence in general.

Whatever system does it, it will have to be able to handle a bunch of wild situations autonomously. After thinking about it I don't think any sort of remote operation can be relied on as a technology to the degree that hypothetical laws would require.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#93
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parking shouldn't be a difficult task for a self-driving truck; but I suspect there will be a 'driver' along for the ride well after the task is mostly automated, just to deal with exceptional circumstances (eg. flash flood has made road impassable in some way the automated truck cannot deal with) and also to act as a security guard so nobody robs the robo-truck.

I doubt security guard is really required, at least in US, Europe and most other developed countries. Container is closed and it's easy to install device that calls police in case it's opened mid-way. Also most trucks transport goods that are difficult to steal and sell profitably (low price, high weight - think groceries, furniture, etc).

Oh I definitely think any sort of time spent stationary by a truck full of goods is a security concern. The places you mention are obviously the safest in the world but there are certainly people who will rob (burglarize?) trucks if given the right opportunity.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#94
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think automation will happen sooner than we expect. 5-8 years seems likely to me. There is a hurdle with interstate trucking, where some states will lag behind in allowing it and providing the required bureaucratic support. But it is already technologically possible, if not yet a fully developed product. It just takes one company to get it allowed in one state and start doing it, the others will follow. Self drivin…

My impression from riding along with my parents is that every day is filled with mostly improvisation. From dealing with bad, aggressive drivers who will get you and themselves killed, to rapidly changing road and weather conditions, to widely disparate entrances and loading docks, inaccurate GPS, etc. it just seems like the times that the self-driving would benefit are so infrequent with regular cross-country drivin…

Maybe they will initially be used for long straight lines on highways and the human drivers will only be responsible for the "last mile" drive.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#95

It is not a matter of paying "more" but changing how they pay Most Truckers are paid by the mile... So if your sitting in traffic no pay (next time your stopped in traffic look around, how many semi's are sitting with you, most of those drivers are doing it for free) Then there is load and unload time, which for some companies is non-paid, other is a nominal flat rate of like $35 that could take up hours of your day.…

You started down the right road. Much of their pay has to do with how they are paid. There are trucking companies that don't pay drivers to fuel the truck. Do you know how long that takes? It isn't like it is an optional task - that truck won't move without fuel. I know a driver who spends 2-6 hours waiting to be unloaded. He doesn't get paid for that time but isn't free to leave the truck because when the loading do…

The issue is that most drivers incorrectly assume they are in the weakest position for any given scenario. They absorb delays as if it were their own fault and falsify logs to compensate. Many drivers even absorbed the reimbursable toll costs on a route because they couldn't match the ticket times to their falsified logs.

They are afraid to log as 'on duty not driving', which is how they legally should be doing it. Sure, they make less that one day but the sheer number of hours wasted at the shipper or consignee will have a knock-on effect which will make on-time delivery less likely. I drove tractor-trailers in the US for eight years and I would tell other drivers 'this system is broken, allow it to fail and cover your ass by documenting everything'.

I refused to falsify my logs and would rigidly log everything 100% accurately, even logging Hours of Service violations (e.g. difficulty finding parking & going 30-45 min over on drive time) which could have cost me a ticket. Once in a while I'd get hauled into a weigh station for an inspection and they'd notice the hours violation. I explained about refusing to falsify and they'd see this was true. I'd get a funny look but never a ticket.

The outcome here was that I was very predictable to the 'trip planners', who were one grade above the lowly dispatchers. The trip planners always knew exactly where I stood from the truck's telemetry data, plus I would always communicate delays. They were better able to predict how to use my time and their company truck. I was never out of pocket for reimbursable expenses because time/date stamps on receipts always matched. I was making more than most of our company-employed drivers and even some of the owner-operators who struggled with fuel costs, etc.

The dispatchers hated me because they constantly had to explain to management why my loads were late and how I could not be blamed for the delays as I had documented everything and communicated the delays well in advance. Every other driver would have gone over their hours illegally to compensate, but I always stopped when I ran out of driving hours and therefore missed appointments.

They all caught on after a while and learned to use my time more wisely. I reliably made $50-55K/year which was exceptional for trucking and enjoyed the very low tax rate Hours of Service workers get (9%, taking the standard deduction x days worked, typically). It was an interesting job overall because of all the sights you see, but I can't recommend it to anyone looking for a career change. Stick with the tech sector as it is much safer and you can go home every night.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#96
post #5

> But corporate America has become so parsimonious about paying workers outside the executive suite that meaningful wage increases may seem an unacceptable affront. In this environment, it may be easier to say “There is a shortage of skilled workers” than “We aren’t paying our workers enough,” even if, in economic terms, those come down to the same thing.

If a business owner raises wages, he solves his labor problem but spends more money and reduces profit. If instead he complains about a labor shortage, then maybe politicians will pass a law allowing more immigration and he will be able to lower his wages and increase his profit. It's beneficial for business owners for there to be a general belief in a labor shortage but it is not beneficial for people to believe the…

We wouldn't have this conversation, if immigration was sane in the first place. Ie let anyone in. It's such a waste of human labour.

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#98
post #43

Hmmm, why are we still talking about truck drivers exactly? The trucking industry is about to tank hard. Mercedes demo'd its first driverless truck a couple of weeks ago (!). Yes, there will be specialists drivers sure and niche companies. But the day of the interstate road train will be done shortly. The biggest new niche in my mind will be vehicle security. These trucks will be flying solo across the nation - unman…

Can the driver-less truck put chains on its tires in the winter? I didn't think so. I'm sure that we'll make use of the tech we have but there is so much more to driving a truck than driving. Maybe the "drivers" will be able to climb in the back and sleep while the truck does they driving and they can take care of everything else.

Can the driver-less truck put chains on its tires in the winter?

http://www.onspot.com/

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You started down the right road. Much of their pay has to do with how they are paid. There are trucking companies that don't pay drivers to fuel the truck. Do you know how long that takes? It isn't like it is an optional task - that truck won't move without fuel. I know a driver who spends 2-6 hours waiting to be unloaded. He doesn't get paid for that time but isn't free to leave the truck because when the loading do…

The issue is that most drivers incorrectly assume they are in the weakest position for any given scenario. They absorb delays as if it were their own fault and falsify logs to compensate. Many drivers even absorbed the reimbursable toll costs on a route because they couldn't match the ticket times to their falsified logs. They are afraid to log as 'on duty not driving', which is how they legally should be doing it. S…

thanks for sharing your experience, it sounds like a tough job just to do the job right. do you think the system will get un-broken before we start seeing things like automated trucks?

http://www.vox.com/2014/6/3/5775482/why-trucks-will-drive-th...

Re: The Trucking Industry Needs More Drivers. Maybe It Needs to Pay More

#100
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that most drivers incorrectly assume they are in the weakest position for any given scenario. They absorb delays as if it were their own fault and falsify logs to compensate. Many drivers even absorbed the reimbursable toll costs on a route because they couldn't match the ticket times to their falsified logs. They are afraid to log as 'on duty not driving', which is how they legally should be doing it. S…

thanks for sharing your experience, it sounds like a tough job just to do the job right. do you think the system will get un-broken before we start seeing things like automated trucks? http://www.vox.com/2014/6/3/5775482/why-trucks-will-drive-th...

There is a lot to automate, for example shifting the trailer tandem axles or the 'fifth wheel' to more evenly distribute the weight per axle. I don't know how an automated truck would handle driving across Wyoming with tens of thousands of big tumbleweeds blowing across the road, would the collision-avoidance system be triggered? A human knows what they are and that you just keep going full-speed.

Snow is another issue. Sometimes you can safely drive through snowdrifts at speed and keep going. Sometimes it isn't a snowdrift at all, but a car covered in snow and abandoned on the highway, and the only way to tell is to approach slowly and look for an antenna sticking up or something like that. Not an everyday occurrence but it illustrates a scenario where human intelligence keeps you moving ahead when an automated system would probably need to stop and wait for human intervention.

Trucking is a huge industry with well over 100% annual turnover, and many individual drivers taking liability for accidents that were preventable. With automated trucks, that liability burden may shift back to the companies who would no longer be able to plead ignorance. It's one more issue to deal with in addition to getting the technology right.

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