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The Brutal Ageism of Tech

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Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#91
post #55

I'm a 40+ engineer in the NYC metro area and I've never felt more in-demand in my life! I think it boils down to a simple idea: computer-science is a dynamic field and THE FUN PART is that you need to always be learning. There are still some colleagues my age who still wax about the days of writing JCL for their mainframe jobs and never evolved past the 80's and perhaps they gave a bad name for others who built on th…

What was the job market like when you graduated from university? Do you think it's easier for you to get a job now than it is 10, 20 years ago? Just curious to hear your thoughts.

When I graduated from college, it was 1994. Most people who were making good money at the time were Unix C programmers so that's what I did out of school. Honestly, I felt more ageism because I was young at the time (contrary to this article) than than I ever do now as a 40+. I was getting paid a relatively low salary and was expected to work insane hours. My accountant friends were probably making more money out of school. So, I wouldn't say it was harder to find a job then, but it was harder to find something cool or interesting than it is now.

I also think I wrote kind of silly code then. I always laugh when I think about a persistent hash table I had to write and how I went out of my way to find prime numbers for M slots using Fermat's Simple Theorem (not his last theorem) and testing for Carmichael numbers. Of course, there aren't that many prime numbers in the first place and a static table would have worked just fine! I always remember this as part of my evolution from an inexperienced academic kid solving a problem that doesn't need solving vs. experience to know where to comprimise and just get it done.

Even then, I knew it was important to start specializing where the needs were evolving, which was win32 programming at the time and eventually Windows MFC programming. This all dove-tailed nicely years later when I started working on the Playstation 3, where you develop in MS DevStudio but the PS3 was essentially a Unix box. It's funny how things work out.

The only thing that sucks about being a 40+ engineer is when I say "whachoo talkin' bout Willis" or "it's tricky to rock a rhyme", half the people don't know what I'm talking about.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#92
If they'd spend the time they spent getting botox on Coursera or in youtube lectures learning the current skills that are in demand, they might just see a better result.

Pushing 50 and it frickin' works for me...

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#93
Is a twenty-something founder going to hire people twice their age in the early days of their company? Unlikely.Twenty-something founders hire people they know, who are usually their own age. Friends from college, or the other twenty-somethings from their last company.

As a early-twenty-something I only know a relatively small number of engineers 30+, and have only worked with a handful. Compare that to the dozens of engineers my own old that I know, and have worked on projects together. If I founded a company tomorrow I know which 4 friends from college I would want on my team, they're all other twenty-somethings.

The only engineers over 25 I have worked with (excluding open source projects) were my bosses at previous companies. I simply wouldn't know who to hire. Anyway, would any self-respecting engineer take a job at a company found by one of their interns or recent graduates from a few years back? I highly doubt it.

In my hypothetical would I really hire someone who was twice my age? Probably not. To be honest I'd be afraid of their experience. I'd feel maybe their my training wheels. They have a lot more experience than me, will their experience take over my company's vision. Part of the mentality as a twenty-something founder is proving yourself, be that to your colleagues, your peers, your parents, or whoever said you just wouldn't make it.

I find it hard to find other twenty-somethings hiring many people twice their age in the early days. Maybe without even realising it a culture similar to that of college creeps in. Every new hire creates culture, and from my hypothetical I don't have a very diverse team to start with if I start with college friends and other twenty-somethings.

Somewhere in the early days no one seems to be spotting the 'culture' problem start-ups are creating. Was this problem unintentionally created? Or was this problem created sub-consciously created intentionally? Would I as a twenty-something founder sub-conciously create a company where my Dad or my even my cool Uncle wouldn't want to work at? Probably.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#94
I think part of the problem with VCs giving money to older guys to start a business, as opposed to writing software, is that if they were any good at building business that you'd kind of expect them to be rich already. When that is the case such as Joel Spolsky (49 ish) raising money for Stack Exchange there are no problems. Basically any VC would write him a cheque. But I can see the problem with a 49 yr old guy saying give us money for our startup, we'll make you billons in spite of having made zilch the last 30 years that VCs might be skeptical.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#95

This article might more aptly be titled the brutal ageism of silicon valley. Or perhaps the brutal ageism of startups. There are red flags that you can easily spot in a job interview or job posting that indicate that the employer wants 80-hour weeks. And who signs up for 80-hour weeks? Naive young people who don't value their time and don't have other commitments, like side projects or family.

Red flags like what?

"We work on very hard deadlines" "Looking for someone with energy to manage all aspects of" "We have a fast pace of development" "We want someone completely dedicated to the vision"

It's easier to gauge over the phone or in person. It's often the way things are said that act as a trigger. If a founder works 60-80 hour weeks, it's going to be expected that you will too.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#96
Is the stuff they talk about in the article true? Devs discussing banging girls over the weekend and having NSFW conversations that sound like they were ripped out of a 3 AM freshman dorm room filled with marijuana haze? Code filled with variable names that would make a 13 year old titter? I work for a well known SV tech company in a group with many NCGs, but neither me or my coworkers would for a moment consider any of the above acceptable behavior in a professional environment. I also worked at a startup, but it was more hardware focused and filled with older engineers (and was slightly more button down than typical). I honestly can't tell if these stories are journalistic hyperbole, or actual things that happen in a part of the tech sector that I've never seen before.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#97
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the job market like when you graduated from university? Do you think it's easier for you to get a job now than it is 10, 20 years ago? Just curious to hear your thoughts.

When I graduated from college, it was 1994. Most people who were making good money at the time were Unix C programmers so that's what I did out of school. Honestly, I felt more ageism because I was young at the time (contrary to this article) than than I ever do now as a 40+. I was getting paid a relatively low salary and was expected to work insane hours. My accountant friends were probably making more money out of…

...is when I say "whachoo talkin' bout Willis"

There's your problem. You have to ask it as a question.

Try telling someone they're "2 legit 2 quit"; the kids today are not sure if that's good or bad.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#98
post #11

One of the biggest indirect causes of ageism I've seen is the traditional career path forced many engineers out of engineering - there is/was an attitude at places like IBM of: "If you want to make bank, you need to go into management or sales". Years later, an engineering crunch makes engineering into "where the money is", but you largely lost a generation of technical experience that took a break of a decade or two…

I think this is a huge part of it, folks who stop "keeping up" with the technology eventually find there is a huge amount of catching up to do. When that happens, especially if there isn't a lot of runway, it can be difficult. I remark to folks all the time that you can take someone right out of high school, and have them spend about 2000 hrs learning about "computers" and now they are 'hot shot programmers' that are…

>Had they instead spent that six months re-tuning old talents, sending out the occasional resume, and building stuff, that seems to get people hired regardless of age.

There are two problems with that logic. The first is if you have only six months of experience doing something your pay is likely to reflect that.

Second, look at it from an employer's perspective. You can hire a twenty year old or a fifty year old. They have the same experience with whatever the latest thing is. The twenty year old has the energy of youth. No wife or children. He may come in hungover occasionally but with enough Red Bull he'll bounce back by noon.

The fifty year old is slowing down. He takes drugs for his blood pressure that make him tired. He has ailing parents and teenagers at home.

Who do you think is going to be more productive? Who's going to put in 16 hour days at crunch time?

You can't play to a young man's strengths if you want to compete with young men when you're over forty. IMO you'd be better off as the last guy who knows COBOL than just like every other mobile programmer with six months of experience except older and slower.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#99
Could it be that young founders feel more comfortable with employees their age or younger, and that older developers give young founders a sense of impostor syndrome? That seems as likely a reason for this phenomenon in new, small startups as anything.

Re: The Brutal Ageism of Tech

#100
post #94

I think part of the problem with VCs giving money to older guys to start a business, as opposed to writing software, is that if they were any good at building business that you'd kind of expect them to be rich already. When that is the case such as Joel Spolsky (49 ish) raising money for Stack Exchange there are no problems. Basically any VC would write him a cheque. But I can see the problem with a 49 yr old guy say…

The article focuses on an example of a guy who had totally proved himself with past success, and yet still encountered ageism.

Here's how he's introduced:

> The most impressive entrepreneur in Scheinman’s portfolio who hadn’t caught on was a fortysomething Boston-based engineer named Nick Stamos. In the early 2000s, Stamos had been the chief technology officer at one start-up that eventually hit a market value of $1 billion. He later co-founded another that earned tens of millions of dollars in annual revenue. Everyone Stamos had ever worked with raved about his technical chops, his relentless salesmanship, his flare for innovation. “The picture was remarkable,” Scheinman says.

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