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How Software Companies Die (1995)

cs.cmu.edu

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Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#91

Post by g8oz »

brazzy wrote: post #17

Was this as ridiculous a pastiche of clichés when it was written in 1995 as it is now? Or did programmers really only start to have social lives, dislike permanent crunch mode and plan before coding in the last 20 years? It sounds to me like Card read through the Jargon file, i.e. the self-image of a considerably earlier subculture of programmers, took it at face value, added some hyperbole and wrote it up as a kind…

>> Or did programmers really only start to have social lives, dislike permanent crunch mode and plan before coding in the last 20 years?

Yes. Powerful hardware is tolerant of normal people and their normal code. You had to be a little "off" to get the camel through the eye of the needle in times past.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#92

Post by theorique »

rmc wrote: post #63
theorique wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the left never shuts up about it. I deplore his views, and Ender's Game was still a great book. People are complex.

Yes, people who are denied their rights, beaten up and killed tend to get annoyed about it. They have a right to be annoyed.

Of course, but we've all heard the message a million times and we get it: bigotry is bad, OSC is a bigot against gays, and hence he is bad.

No argument from me about those known truths. But does it have to be repeated every time the man's name gets mentioned like we don't know it?

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#93

Post by lifty »

72deluxe wrote: post #78
humanfromearth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same reaction. Pizzas? Overweight dudes with their 'tight' code?

I would live on pizzas and coffee. Seems the newer generation of programmers don't like that sort of thing! I'm not old by any stretch of the imagination, but I always thought of programmers as beardy types with awkward glasses, brown trousers and a crumpled shirt/t-shirt. (I never ironed my shirts, that's for sure!). And coffee was always black. Programmers were more like engineers. As stated, this brogrammer person…

Well, I think the difference is that now, the beards, awkward glasses and brown trousers are fashionable. So what was once ridiculed and avoided, is now praised and desirable.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#94

Post by wavefunction »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #58
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your characterization of OSC is incorrect. He only believes sodomy laws should be used carefully to make sure people don't "shake the confidence of the community", and that most homosexuals should not be jailed. Ah. Yes. My mistake. He thinks only the uppity gay folks should be thrown in prison in order to properly terrorize the rest, who can remain free as long as they understand how disgusting and shameful they a…

The communist blacklist was merely a list of communists published the Hollywood Reporter, making studios aware of their feelings so studios could make their own decisions. It later expanded to include other communists, who's feelings the studios were made aware of in order to make their own decision. I didn't call you an oppressor. I agree with you that Card, much like the Communists in Hollywood, is an advocate of o…

>>The communist blacklist was merely a list of communists published the Hollywood Reporter

Merely a list! You might feel a little differently in 1950s USA with your name on that list. A list that meant the end of your career, blacklisting by friends and family (even sympathetic for fear of association.)

You're the second person in 24 hours to downplay McCarthyism as no big deal and it's left me scratching my head in wonder. Either y'all are ignorant about history, or y'all are stupid, and I'm not sure which I'd rather admit to if forced to choose...

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#95

Post by mabbo »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #2

We all know that OSC is a horrible bigot, right? I feel like any sort of fatherly advice he emits needs to be suffixed with "...unless you're gay, then you should be in prison."

There are many people on this planet who are brilliant, but flawed. If you disregard all the brilliance because you dislike the flaws, you miss out.

Tom Cruise has made some fantastic films. But Scientology...

The Scopes Monkey trial eventually lead to evolution being taught in (most) schools... but Scopes was apparently pretty okay with Eugenics.

Mel Gibson was Mad Max... But he's a racist.

Fred Phelps won some important Civil Rights cases in the 60s... but Westboro Baptist Church, wtf man?

Card is a tool in his personal life, and I'll fight him tooth and nail on those issues. I still loved Ender's Game, and I still found this article cute and fun to read.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#96

Post by wavefunction »

sanoli wrote: post #37
nashashmi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that wrong again?! It is true that they are trying to gain legitimacy. It is no longer about rights but now it is about acceptance. The time has come now to the point where anyone who holds an anti-gay position is criticized and/or boycotted. Now we have not just reached giving gays equal treatment but making changes to accommodate a different lifestyle. The second point OSC makes is sourced in a discomfort fr…

Is this different from, say, the black movement? What if there were no longer segregated schools and bathrooms, but african-americans were prohibited to adopt children and black history were not allowed to be taught in schools? edit: I'm not from the U.S. so I don't know everything as far as minority rights go over there. In my country there are laws agains racism, and they're trying to pass anti-homophobia laws too.…

In the US, it boils down to: you are free to be as much as a bigot as you like in your personal life (there are some special laws about renting and employment) but as long as you are not combining your bigotry with another crime (assault, harassment) you can let your hate flag fly.

I think this helps society blow of some of its racism and bigotry in a safer way than just repressing it, but it's an ongoing struggle between too much freedom and too little, like everything else in America.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#97

Post by PavlovsCat »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #82
PavlovsCat wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "don't buy from Nazis" really the same as "don't buy from Jews"? It's not about attacking people who disagree, it's about withdrawing support from those who attack others. Let's say, someone beats their wife brutally, but they're very good at bowling, and always treat you respectfully. Would you feel good about going bowling with them, regardless of how much objectively correct things about bowling they could teac…

It sounds equivalent to "don't buy scripts or other moviemaking services from Communists." The distinction you are attempting to draw about attacking others makes little sense given the examples I cited. Opponents of polygamy, supporters of Obamacare and opponents of privacy all favor attacking others (polygamists, people who don't buy health insurance, and people who don't cooperate with spying). Most public policie…

There is still a difference between bigoted, chauvinistic superstitions and scapegoating, and disagreements about public policy happening in good faith.

You haven't answered my second question. Have you at least thought about it?

Also, consider this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies#Wagner.27s...

It's just music! Why can't people "just listen to the music" which itself has nothing to do with antisemitism? Oh, but that's different, because it strikes close to home for them, right? Well no, the same goes for any homosexuals or those having empathy for them. Or people who just don't like the idea of the US sinking into chaos (violent revolution) because some truly believe that what homosexuals do in their bedrooms or marriages is to blame for their own abysmal performance in both.

You could argue that you personally don't mind listening to Wagner, but that's not an argument for what others should do - surely you understand that. Likewise, the person that started this subthread didn't say everybody should not listen to OSC, but simply asked if anyone else has the same reaction as them. That's perfectly legit, and making such a fuss about is just silly.

Is the article really that good? It seems like the only good thing anyone has to say about this article, is that what someone else said in alleged attack of it is fallacious...? I found it cringeworthy personally.

Lastly, it's not like someone said OSC made good points with X and Y, and then someone else replied "but he's a homophobe!". The ad-hominem complaints are silly anyway: the post itself is only on here because of who wrote it, not because it's that good, and a negative ad-hominem is kind of a valid response to a positive ad-hominem.

Re: How Software Companies Die (1995)

#100

Post by michaelochurch »

I like some of what this essay has to say, but generally disagree with this:

When you emerge into daylight, you might well discover that you're a hundred pounds overweight, your underwear is older than the average first grader, and judging from the number of pizza boxes lying around, it must be spring already.

That's depressing, and unhealthy. Programming well is a marathon, not a sprint. Neglecting your health burns you in the long run. In fact, programming is so mentally intense that you probably shouldn't be doing it more than 50 hours per week. A couple weeks at 65-80 is fine, if you're in the zone and truly engaged, but you're probably not doing useful work if you're on your sixth 90-hour week in a row. In fact, I think the people who can truly sustain a solid 70 hpw (much less 90-110+, because long hours get exponentially more difficult) are less than 1% of the population, and not the most enviable for a bunch of reasons I won't get into.

Also, the ability to get to 100 pounds overweight without only mild loss of professional and social status (instead of the severe loss women face) is a male privilege of sorts.

I agree with the general message. Flow is important, and The Game is pretty engrossing. I had a few months in a managerial position (a while ago) where I never wrote real code and the itch to do something real got very strong. Coding is more fun than a video game, if you do it right. But I can't agree that neglect of health is a good thing (I've seen its end-stage, which is pretty horrible) and, if you let that sort of thing fester, it will make your work worse in the long run.

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