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Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

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Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#91

Post by jondtaylor »

XorNot wrote: post #49
TomGullen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being resistant to legal action is an advantage in many parts of the world with repressive government. There are more advantages when you look outside the narrow view of utility in modern western society. Now anyone in the world can explore entrepreneurship and all they need is a computer. Computers are becoming more and more accessible (Raspery Pi's, $100 laptops etc). Now people in poverty stricken countries can es…

> The difference being that Bitcoin is not a fundamentally rigged system. A fundamentally rigged system is any system which doesn't reward merit. That's BitCoin - it doesn't reward merit. Those who got in first, benefit if they convince everyone else to use it. But those they convince do not benefit the same.

Not necessarily. The fractional reserve system is rigged in the sense that to use it you must borrow at interest where the interest can not be paid back resulting in assets transferred to the creators of the currency. Bitcoin does not have this property. In my opinion the system of Bitcoin isn't rewarding certain people over others, that is a property of the market.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#92

Post by Weltan »

oleganza wrote: post #86
Weltan wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and I guess what I'm saying is that it's fine to do so at someone else's expense. But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed. If you believe it is illegitimate, that's ultimately your problem and you live in a reality where most people do not agree with you. That's fine, we can disagree…

"unsubstantiated statements" you say? How about "But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed"? Basically, you are okay if people who disagree with your opinion can be beaten and their money confiscated. This does not say anything good of you as a fellow human being.

Yeah, but such a statement requires no actual evidence. I can tell you I'm okay with it, because that's a fact about myself. The fact that your view is incompatible just shows that I don't consider all opinions morally valid, some are wrong. Just as to you it might appear that I am not 'good', it might appear to me that you're not 'good' if you refuse to pay taxes. It's a coincidence that my view is backed-up by society, but such is life. A libertarian might say to a person born blind, deaf and dumb who is unable to work: 'tough luck', I can say to a libertarian born in a society that forces them to support those less fortunate with taxes: 'tough luck.' I personally see nothing immoral about this.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#93

Post by Weltan »

snitko wrote: post #87
Weltan wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and I guess what I'm saying is that it's fine to do so at someone else's expense. But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed. If you believe it is illegitimate, that's ultimately your problem and you live in a reality where most people do not agree with you. That's fine, we can disagree…

As for why unemployment exists in the US... Please factor in illegal employment created by government criminalizing drugs and other things (prostitution or gambling, for instance). Factor in minimum wage, which allows some people to earn more at the expense of those who are not employed at all. Factor in military men coming back from wars not being able to find jobs, because government used them and threw away. Facto…

The market is a system constantly re-evaluating itself to reach equilibrium. It's a very weak view of the market which takes away from it the ability to take into account government 'interference'. Indeed, most governments don't interfere too often, prostitution and gambling have been illegal for decades in the US (legal where I live, however). I don't need to factor these things in, because the market has already factored them in. What government interference implies is a sort of Old-Testament God, who constantly interferes with its subjects. Governments try their best to interfere very little, they make sure inflation stays low-ish, they don't suddenly change economic policy except in crises. Government "interference" (the better word you might use is 'existence', since this is what I think you mean) is an ever-present fact of the market and the market has always taken it into account.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#94

Post by Weltan »

oleganza wrote: post #83
Weltan wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say we have to evaluate the cost in any sort of vacuum of political power, the tools are here and the tools are perfectly capable of taking into account government. In fact, the tools necessitate a governmental economic policy at this point. Government measurements often are independent measurements insofar as they are measurements done by an entity that has more neutral stake in the economic function of a n…

"Who else can require corporations/individuals to release correct/non-fraudulent financial data" People will figure this out. And if they don't, who is to come with a gun and tell them how to live? In many cases it's not even needed. Who needs to know how much do you earn? Only those who confiscate from you.

Then where/how/why does this 'evaluation' you speak of happen?

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#95

Post by lukifer »

snitko wrote: post #90
lukifer wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, the concepts of money and ownership could also be argued to the products of a social contract, and that the inability to beat someone over the head and take their stuff is an abridgment of freedom.

There exists no such thing as social contract. It's made up. Can you prove its existence?

Of course not. But codes of behavior clearly exist. Even without invoking laws, people in a civilized society will patiently stand in line rather than attempt to fight for first place.

Money is similar: it does not exist, except in our imaginations. We invented the idea, along with ideas like "fairness", "justice" and "ownership". They are not perfect inventions, and they are illusory and ephemeral, but they nonetheless shape human behavior.

"You're not allowed to take what's mine" is every bit a product of an illusory code of behavior as taxation, laws, etc. It does not exist in nature intrinsically. If you honor other people's ownership and expect them to honor yours, you are participating in following these unwritten rules.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#96

Post by snitko »

Weltan wrote: post #93
snitko wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As for why unemployment exists in the US... Please factor in illegal employment created by government criminalizing drugs and other things (prostitution or gambling, for instance). Factor in minimum wage, which allows some people to earn more at the expense of those who are not employed at all. Factor in military men coming back from wars not being able to find jobs, because government used them and threw away. Facto…

The market is a system constantly re-evaluating itself to reach equilibrium. It's a very weak view of the market which takes away from it the ability to take into account government 'interference'. Indeed, most governments don't interfere too often, prostitution and gambling have been illegal for decades in the US (legal where I live, however). I don't need to factor these things in, because the market has already fa…

I just pointed out a number of sources of unemployment originating from government interference and you just replied with "but government interference always existed, therefore it cannot be a reason for unemployment". That's not an argument.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#97

Post by [deleted] »

Weltan wrote: post #92
oleganza wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"unsubstantiated statements" you say? How about "But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed"? Basically, you are okay if people who disagree with your opinion can be beaten and their money confiscated. This does not say anything good of you as a fellow human being.

Yeah, but such a statement requires no actual evidence. I can tell you I'm okay with it, because that's a fact about myself. The fact that your view is incompatible just shows that I don't consider all opinions morally valid, some are wrong. Just as to you it might appear that I am not 'good', it might appear to me that you're not 'good' if you refuse to pay taxes. It's a coincidence that my view is backed-up by soci…

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#98

Post by snitko »

Weltan wrote: post #92
oleganza wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"unsubstantiated statements" you say? How about "But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed"? Basically, you are okay if people who disagree with your opinion can be beaten and their money confiscated. This does not say anything good of you as a fellow human being.

Yeah, but such a statement requires no actual evidence. I can tell you I'm okay with it, because that's a fact about myself. The fact that your view is incompatible just shows that I don't consider all opinions morally valid, some are wrong. Just as to you it might appear that I am not 'good', it might appear to me that you're not 'good' if you refuse to pay taxes. It's a coincidence that my view is backed-up by soci…

There's a larger implication, actually. You think it's moral to use force against people who disagree with you. It doesn't matter what the question is, the idea is that you are prepared to initiate the use of force, while libertarians are fundamentally opposed to that.

I just think it's important to take our fellow human beings not as objects to be taxed, but as individuals to be convinced. If you think helping some group of people is a good idea - convince me, don't just steal from me. If you steal, this doesn't make you a single bit more moral.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#99

Post by Weltan »

snitko wrote: post #96
Weltan wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market is a system constantly re-evaluating itself to reach equilibrium. It's a very weak view of the market which takes away from it the ability to take into account government 'interference'. Indeed, most governments don't interfere too often, prostitution and gambling have been illegal for decades in the US (legal where I live, however). I don't need to factor these things in, because the market has already fa…

I just pointed out a number of sources of unemployment originating from government interference and you just replied with "but government interference always existed, therefore it cannot be a reason for unemployment". That's not an argument.

Did I say that? I didn't realize I made such a categorical statement! I thought I said that the market already takes the government into account, not that the government cannot be a reason for unemployment. The government certainly could be a reason for unemployment, but that doesn't mean it is always the reason for unemployment, nor does it mean that proper regulation necessarily leads to lowered employment.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#100

Post by snitko »

lukifer wrote: post #95
snitko wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There exists no such thing as social contract. It's made up. Can you prove its existence?

Of course not. But codes of behavior clearly exist. Even without invoking laws, people in a civilized society will patiently stand in line rather than attempt to fight for first place. Money is similar: it does not exist, except in our imaginations. We invented the idea, along with ideas like "fairness", "justice" and "ownership". They are not perfect inventions, and they are illusory and ephemeral, but they nonethel…

And why do you suppose people decide to stand in line without anyone actually forcing them to do so? It must be because they know that if a couple of them decide to break the line and go ahead of everyone else, then everyone else would do the same, this would create chaos and no one's gonna get anywhere.

With so called social contract everything falls apart rather fast when you remove force from the picture. How many people, do you think, would keep paying taxes if they knew no IRS agent is ever going to show up on their doorstep?

You see, you confuse what's really a universal behavior and codes with something that's imposed upon us by a threat of force. No one forces people to use Bitcoin or Gold. But people are forced to use USD. No one us forced to donate to charities, but people are forced to pay taxes. Every time you look at something that you think is a product of society, please ask yourself: would this thing exist if no central force, like government, was applied? For instance, would property exist if no government was enforcing it? Some would say no, but of course it's not true, since territorial behavior is present even in animals.

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