Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

bitcoinmagazine.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 109 posts

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#81

Post by Weltan »

snitko wrote: post #80
Weltan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there's no room in this case where and individual would be unable to find work? Somehow, everyone will have a skill-set and the personal capability (even quadriplegic people?) at any given time to find work on demand and to change their work on demand as well. What is your definition of voluntary, by the way? Is a person taking a job they don't want to do, but have to in order to feed themselves, a voluntary decis…

I think what oleganza is trying to say here is that while unemployment may indeed exist under any system, what we have to understand is that by creating laws and regulations to fight it, we really are doing it at someone else's expense. For instance, if an automobile factory produces cars and people don't really need so many cars, then this factory fires workers. If it's impossible or difficult to fire them, then thi…

Right, and I guess what I'm saying is that it's fine to do so at someone else's expense. But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed. If you believe it is illegitimate, that's ultimately your problem and you live in a reality where most people do not agree with you. That's fine, we can disagree and move on.

But the problem comes in when unsubstantiated statements come into this. I don't see any evidence presented at all that what you go on to say in your last paragraph is true.

"The reason unemployment exists is not because there's not enough jobs." I'm sorry, but my country's unemployment rate is 22%[1], and we have no welfare state worth mentioning. The minimum wage is under $1/h, and there are no restrictions on hiring nor on firing. We've had this same rate of unemployment for decades with constant economic liberalization. Now, I suppose under oleganza's view, we can still blame the very fact that government (anywhere) exists on this problem, but at a certain point you cannot blame the government anymore.

[1]http://webrzs.stat.gov.rs/WebSite/Public/ReportResultView.as...

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#82

Post by oleganza »

Weltan wrote: post #79
oleganza wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about cost. We can only evaluate things when we are free from coercion to run experiments and measure the results independently. If there is a huge federal government monopoly on economic policy, there's no way we can find out if it's efficient or good enough. The only way to find out - remove the government coercion and then see how each family decides on their own: on which money to use, where to invest, wh…

I didn't say we have to evaluate the cost in any sort of vacuum of political power, the tools are here and the tools are perfectly capable of taking into account government. In fact, the tools necessitate a governmental economic policy at this point. Government measurements often are independent measurements insofar as they are measurements done by an entity that has more neutral stake in the economic function of a n…

In an experiment you not only measure, you also conduct an experiment. And in an economy every decision affects everyone to varying degree. Especially government's because only violent actors can reach those who would otherwise not be reachable. E.g. when I sell you my service, it does not greatly affect anyone except you. But when I start doing my service for you as a government agency, I suddenly affect everyone because I have to tax everyone and do that I have to create ten more agencies including IRS, police, SWAT etc.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#83

Post by oleganza »

Weltan wrote: post #79
oleganza wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about cost. We can only evaluate things when we are free from coercion to run experiments and measure the results independently. If there is a huge federal government monopoly on economic policy, there's no way we can find out if it's efficient or good enough. The only way to find out - remove the government coercion and then see how each family decides on their own: on which money to use, where to invest, wh…

I didn't say we have to evaluate the cost in any sort of vacuum of political power, the tools are here and the tools are perfectly capable of taking into account government. In fact, the tools necessitate a governmental economic policy at this point. Government measurements often are independent measurements insofar as they are measurements done by an entity that has more neutral stake in the economic function of a n…

"Who else can require corporations/individuals to release correct/non-fraudulent financial data"

People will figure this out. And if they don't, who is to come with a gun and tell them how to live?

In many cases it's not even needed. Who needs to know how much do you earn? Only those who confiscate from you.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#84

Post by snitko »

Weltan wrote: post #81
snitko wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what oleganza is trying to say here is that while unemployment may indeed exist under any system, what we have to understand is that by creating laws and regulations to fight it, we really are doing it at someone else's expense. For instance, if an automobile factory produces cars and people don't really need so many cars, then this factory fires workers. If it's impossible or difficult to fire them, then thi…

Right, and I guess what I'm saying is that it's fine to do so at someone else's expense. But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed. If you believe it is illegitimate, that's ultimately your problem and you live in a reality where most people do not agree with you. That's fine, we can disagree…

If people weren't afraid an IRS agent could come and take away their possessions and if they refused to cooperate a policeman could come and handcuff them, we would see whom most people would agree with. It's like saying "but my wife agrees with me that beating women is okay" all the while knowing you would beat her even more if she disagrees.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#85

Post by TomGullen »

userulluipeste wrote: post #63
TomGullen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking about deep significance, I also think Bitcoin could be a tool to help support world peace (hear me out!) My understanding of one facet of the UN is that by promoting trade between UN nations it makes war between these nations more costly and difficult thus reducing the chance that war would break out. If correct a globally accepted and popular currency which can be freely transferred across borders b…

In the WW2, USA was safest place in the reasonably-developed world. If you were wealthy and had the ability to move your assets from one country to another, USA was a safe bet for you. Obviously, the movement of wealth was also convenient for the host country's government. Nowadays USA may not appear as the only good place to be, but if you understood the underlying idea of the above reasoning, you may also understan…

Thank you for the counter point. It's a lot to take in but will give it some thought.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#86

Post by oleganza »

Weltan wrote: post #81
snitko wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what oleganza is trying to say here is that while unemployment may indeed exist under any system, what we have to understand is that by creating laws and regulations to fight it, we really are doing it at someone else's expense. For instance, if an automobile factory produces cars and people don't really need so many cars, then this factory fires workers. If it's impossible or difficult to fire them, then thi…

Right, and I guess what I'm saying is that it's fine to do so at someone else's expense. But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed. If you believe it is illegitimate, that's ultimately your problem and you live in a reality where most people do not agree with you. That's fine, we can disagree…

"unsubstantiated statements" you say?

How about "But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed"?

Basically, you are okay if people who disagree with your opinion can be beaten and their money confiscated. This does not say anything good of you as a fellow human being.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#87

Post by snitko »

Weltan wrote: post #81
snitko wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what oleganza is trying to say here is that while unemployment may indeed exist under any system, what we have to understand is that by creating laws and regulations to fight it, we really are doing it at someone else's expense. For instance, if an automobile factory produces cars and people don't really need so many cars, then this factory fires workers. If it's impossible or difficult to fire them, then thi…

Right, and I guess what I'm saying is that it's fine to do so at someone else's expense. But that's the moral argument and it's a simple one, I don't see government force as illegitimate and therefore I'm fine with taxation, regardless of who is being taxed. If you believe it is illegitimate, that's ultimately your problem and you live in a reality where most people do not agree with you. That's fine, we can disagree…

As for why unemployment exists in the US... Please factor in illegal employment created by government criminalizing drugs and other things (prostitution or gambling, for instance). Factor in minimum wage, which allows some people to earn more at the expense of those who are not employed at all. Factor in military men coming back from wars not being able to find jobs, because government used them and threw away. Factor in people who are not able to start certain businesses because it's expensive to obtain licences. So it's not just restrictions on firing people. It's so much more.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#88

Post by grinnbearit »

oleganza wrote: post #47
yk wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

( I am rather trying the argument, rather than actually believing it myself.) There are not only BTCs, but also forks and other crypto currencies. So if BTCs hording becomes a problem the incentive to adopt one of the alternatives will rise. Diminishing the value of BTC relative to some other currency and therefore suppressing ( at least to some extend) hording.

Hoarding (saving) will never become a problem because the value of currency is derived from all savers willing to hold it. Why would I store money in an altcoin if Bitcoin has bigger number of savers and I project that it will only increase (and thus increasing my own wealth)? People want one money - the most marketable most liquid commodity to store their cash in. http://blog.oleganza.com/post/54121516413/the-univer…

Mencius Moldbug expands on this concept http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.in/2011/04/on-monet...

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#89

Post by lukifer »

snitko wrote: post #36
pjc50 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin seems to be a very good way of creating a new "club" of a small number of bitcoin-wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Being resistant to legal action is not an advantage, it will create an environment rife with fraud and security risks.

There must be some reason why people would prefer the currency of one club over another. Maybe it's because in "the Bitcoin club" no one tells you what you can do with your money, no one devalues your money at will and no one steals from you and says it's "legitimate taxation" because you allegedly signed some social contract you've never actually seen.

In fairness, the concepts of money and ownership could also be argued to the products of a social contract, and that the inability to beat someone over the head and take their stuff is an abridgment of freedom.

Re: Bitcoin, The Economic Singularity: From Holland with Love

#90

Post by snitko »

lukifer wrote: post #89
snitko wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There must be some reason why people would prefer the currency of one club over another. Maybe it's because in "the Bitcoin club" no one tells you what you can do with your money, no one devalues your money at will and no one steals from you and says it's "legitimate taxation" because you allegedly signed some social contract you've never actually seen.

In fairness, the concepts of money and ownership could also be argued to the products of a social contract, and that the inability to beat someone over the head and take their stuff is an abridgment of freedom.

There exists no such thing as social contract. It's made up. Can you prove its existence?
Post reply on HN