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NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

theguardian.com

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Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#91

Post by ChrisNorstrom »

r00fus wrote: post #61
conductor wrote: post #19

This is the top comment on the Reddit thread: "They went after high ranking military officers . They went after members of congress . The Senate and the House - especially on the intelligence committees, and on the armed services committees and judicial. But they went after other ones too. They went after lawyers and law firms . Heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges . One of the judges is now sitting…

The big question is, who controls this security state? The information is being collected, but who's the audience? And what is their agenda?

The first thing people in power do, is make sure they stay in power. They can't have anyone changing anything that would cause waves and disruptions.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#92

Post by bendoernberg »

sinak wrote: post #10

A note to say that the Stop Watching Us coalition rally is now just two days away. If you're on the east coast, it's not too late to attend. If you're interested, you can find out more here: https://rally.stopwatching.us/ Privacy is one of the hardest things to get folks riled up about. It erodes slowly, and for "good" reasons, like defending the country against terrorism. But privacy is critical to a meaningful demo…

If you can't make it to the rally, consider chipping in a few bucks for a t-shirt to help us cover the overtime pay we're going to owe the stage and sound crew when the rally runs long: http://igg.me/at/stopwatchingus

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#94

Post by sdoering »

mpyne wrote: post #83
aclevernickname wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your comment is calibrating, because it shows that there is a limit to how much privacy invasion the average american will stand for. Thank you for being so forthcoming.

I don't care about Merkel's privacy . But I do care about the fact that she cares about her privacy, and that Germans care about the privacy of their elected Chancellor. Both of those feed into the relationship between Germany and the USA, and that relationship is important enough that the NSA should not put it at risk (or be allowed to be able to put it at risk).

Being a German I only care for Mrs. Merkels privacy because that was the first (and only) moment, when she got upset.

Having her 80 million citizens spied upon by the NSA was no reason to issue a statement. Or to do her job and protect the German people from harm, as it is stated clearly in our constitution as the job of our leaders.

On the contrary. Before anything was really on the table, they declared the topic closed.

So the moment she herself is being spied upon is the moment she (at last) wakes up? Well, really? That does seem quite a little bit egoistic to me, doesn't it.

Isn't every citizen of this country worth the same? Has the same rights to be protected from arbitrary spying?

Well the Germans reelected her with great majority. And the NSA spying is really no big deal for most of my fellow citizens. They just don't care. So the answer to my question above is probably "No".

They just have this "I have nothing to hide, so who cares" mentality, that is so dangerous, so dumb and sheep-like.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#95

Post by sdoering »

grecy wrote: post #28
ceejayoz wrote: post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

This of it this way: Do you routinely monitor the calls, emails and communications of your closest friends and relatives? At some point, those people are going to cut you out of their lives for being so disrespectful and immoral.

Yes, sort of I do. I check the FB-Pages. ;-) Sorry, but something like this seems to me to be the reason, nobody really cares about NSA spying on him (at least here in Germany).

We all do it. We all give in to our voyeuristic urges. We all "spy" upon our neighbors, spouses, friends and so on. We do not get the scope. We do not know, what it means, if states do this. We do not think about different hierarchical power levels and so on.

We just do Facebook and feel, that it is more or less the same, what the NSA does. At least, that is what was being said, when I asked around.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#96

Post by swombat »

ceejayoz wrote: post #64
bparsons wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are close, close allies though. We aren't talking about North Korea. We are talking about countries who have deep diplomatic and military ties. The reason why you wouldn't do something like this, is because there was a damn good chance that it would leak out, mortally wounding your relationship with these people. Secondly, the utility of this particular SIGINT program is highly questionable. What is the ROI on…

> Germany is not plotting against the United States. What scenario would they use info for? Being certain that Germany is not plotting against the United States, I'd guess.

That's not how alliances and trust work. In this context, suspicion is a form of accusation - and it is wholly inappropriate and wrongful for the US to accuse Germany or France of plotting against it's national security interests.

Otoh, what this establishes is that in fact, the US is quite willing to consider actions that may damage the national security interests of its allies.

In short, this sort of spying is a significant disruptor of any sort of lasting trust between nations. If everyone behaves like the US, there are no "allies", only temporarily convenient partners who may be betrayed at any point.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#97

Post by chmike »

todayiamme wrote: post #11

I quite frankly don't understand why anyone would condemn such acts of espionage. They are not only essential for a nation state to function successfully, but they are also a far superior way for the US to maintain its hegemony as compared to using acts of brute force. Now I do not condone Orwellian spying on the citizens of your own republic, but this really is their job and it's quite impressive that they're this g…

I'm surprized that we are so bad at protecting our privacy, especily state leaders.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#98

Post by alan_cx »

meepmorp wrote: post #60
frostmatthew wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelligence from allies should come from cooperation, not espionage.

Why is relying exclusively on information that's been filtered through a foreign government, possibly with its own agenda, a sensible way to gather intelligence?

When they are an ally.

Its how the US expects it's allies to behave towards it. Or do foreigners now have every right to assume the US never, ever plays straight and equally massive surveillance budgets should now be turned towards the US by its own allies?

Honest broker or not?

See, its seems to me this is the core of the arrogance accusation the US gets. The US holds its had high as a champion of democracy, truth, justice and the American way. Oh yeah? Really?

We are expected to buy that and treat American as such. Now we know different. American is hostile. All the smiles, hand shakes and slogans, but underneath, not the same story.

Im afraid America is killing its self, cut by cut. The rest of the world is learning what the American dream really means.

Its actually very, very sad.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#99

Post by frank_boyd »

r00fus wrote: post #61
conductor wrote: post #19

This is the top comment on the Reddit thread: "They went after high ranking military officers . They went after members of congress . The Senate and the House - especially on the intelligence committees, and on the armed services committees and judicial. But they went after other ones too. They went after lawyers and law firms . Heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges . One of the judges is now sitting…

The big question is, who controls this security state? The information is being collected, but who's the audience? And what is their agenda?

Rule number 1: It's ALWAYS about the money.

The agenda is the protection of excessive money/wealth.

Which tells you where to look for "who's behind it": Rich people, very rich people. Also: The military-industrial complex.

And I honestly don't know how one can take down such a power structure that's in such an advanced stage.

I think it's like terminal cancer: it will only die when the host dies.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#100

Post by judk »

pyoung wrote: post #77
differentView wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this mean an unknown person or group that has control of the NSA intelligence is effectively running the United States?

No, it means that the NSA can, and has, collected data on just about anyone. What they do with it, my guess is not much unless there is an actual national security threat, is still up for question.

What you think is a security threat and what they think is a security threat are not the same thing. That is the essence of the problem.
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