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NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

theguardian.com

81–90 of 231 posts

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#81
post #51
post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

You know, I've been a big defender of the role for signals intelligence, including NSA's hand in such. But there is a lot to be said for discretion, especially when you're talking about the top echelon of our NATO allies! Even my defenses of NSA have been predicated on the actual need for intelligence collection. This has the corollary that collection without any use should not be sanctioned. So absent some evidence…

All we know at this point is that the U.S. isn't doing it now...

Actually, we don't know that - we only know they said they're not. Given that Clapper flat out lied about surveillance at the start of all this that isn't worth much.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#82
post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

But we are not at war with everyone, and those countries involved (like Germany, France and Italy) are our partners, economical and military partners. I can accept doing SIGINT on non-friendly countries and organizations but is it correct to spy on your own people and partner countries?

I think a useful question to ask is whether or not being "partners" means each country is universally willing to put the best interests of the other country first, even when that conflicts with their own best interests. If the answer is no, then intelligence gathering would seem to have at least some role even among allies.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#83
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I've been a big defender of the role for signals intelligence, including NSA's hand in such. But there is a lot to be said for discretion, especially when you're talking about the top echelon of our NATO allies! Even my defenses of NSA have been predicated on the actual need for intelligence collection. This has the corollary that collection without any use should not be sanctioned. So absent some evidence…

your comment is calibrating, because it shows that there is a limit to how much privacy invasion the average american will stand for. Thank you for being so forthcoming.

I don't care about Merkel's privacy. But I do care about the fact that she cares about her privacy, and that Germans care about the privacy of their elected Chancellor. Both of those feed into the relationship between Germany and the USA, and that relationship is important enough that the NSA should not put it at risk (or be allowed to be able to put it at risk).

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#84
post #81
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I've been a big defender of the role for signals intelligence, including NSA's hand in such. But there is a lot to be said for discretion, especially when you're talking about the top echelon of our NATO allies! Even my defenses of NSA have been predicated on the actual need for intelligence collection. This has the corollary that collection without any use should not be sanctioned. So absent some evidence…

All we know at this point is that the U.S. isn't doing it now... Actually, we don't know that - we only know they said they're not. Given that Clapper flat out lied about surveillance at the start of all this that isn't worth much.

Sure, but by that definition we don't "know" anything we didn't directly observe ourselves (and even that is at least suspect), and I can't do much by going philosopher-style on what we really know or not.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#85
post #51
post #6

This is the understood and expected function of the NSA, isn't it? Collecting signals intelligence from foreign sources? Does anyone honestly believe the Germans aren't regularly trying to figure out ways to listen to American officials' communications? I find the NSA's domestic spying to be appalling... but this is the sort of thing everyone knew the NSA was responsible for since its inception.

You know, I've been a big defender of the role for signals intelligence, including NSA's hand in such. But there is a lot to be said for discretion, especially when you're talking about the top echelon of our NATO allies! Even my defenses of NSA have been predicated on the actual need for intelligence collection. This has the corollary that collection without any use should not be sanctioned. So absent some evidence…

This concept of 'allies' isn't nearly as solid as people are thinking. It seems as if the American public thinks of nations as 'people' and the relationships formed by these 'people' as 'friendships', when really neither holds true.

For instance, if a friend betrays you, it sucks but you learn from it and are okay. If a nation betrays you, people die, your economy suffers, people lose their jobs, etc. You don't get any, "aw, shucks" moments. This isn't about national security in the sense of a violent threat, this is about national security in the sense that we get the benefit of knowing if your allies are going to maintain their agreements with the US or not.

People make this mistake with the US's fiscal status as well. The US is not a person, having debt is not inherently bad for it, and raising the debt ceiling is not the same as maxing out a credit card.

Furthermore, anyone trying to say if this information is useful, or if the information as a net benefit/detriment to the US is blowing smoke, because we don't know the nature of the intelligence gathered.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps because foreign leaders do not consider tapping the phone lines of our allies to be within the scope of NSA's stated mission "to gain a decision advantage for the Nation and our allies under all circumstances."[1] Or maybe because SigInt is supposed to be working "for intelligence and counterintelligence purposes and to support military operations."[1] They might not get why tapping their phones supports Amer…

How on earth is knowing the internal dealings of foreign governments not "gaining a decision advantage for the Nation"?!

Why on earth is it acceptable for the NSA--or any other foreign state's intelligence services--to know the internal dealings of foreign governments?

You're acting as if that isn't something that should be questioned, and should just be accepted as a general good in both domestic and international policy.

Many of us do not think that such a position is tenable or acceptable, much less a proven and legitimate point of view.

The mission statement does not end with "the Nation". It ends "and our allies under all circumstances." America's allies have a legitimate reason to complain their interests are not being served, and might actually be undermined and trespassed by the NSA's actions--just as America would claim the same thing whenever news reports proliferated with a preponderance of evidence detailing how Germany's intelligence services were tapping the White House phones and slurping up all congressional emails, text messages, and voicemails.

All sovereign states--be they allies or rogues--have a legitimate claim to and expectation of privacy where their internal dealings are concerned. This claim and expectation is even higher among allied nations, among whom it is expected that internal dealings concern other nations will be shared via standard diplomatic channels. And the determinations are left to the sovereign state itself regarding what, if any, internal dealings are shared with allies. But the allies do not possess some automatic right or privilege to spy as widely and deeply as they technologically are able to.

That espionage occurs, that states spy on one another in accordance with their relative positions of power to achieve their own self-interests is not up for debate. Nobody in any of these revelations is suggesting it does not happen. Hell, in the purely functional domain of international relations, there are plenty of net positives that result from espionage being neither endorsed nor prohibited by international law, and mutually allowed and expected among foreign states--such as verifying compliance with international obligations, and confirming the veracity of and commitment behind assurances given by foreign states.

But that still misses the more subtle point--foreign states are well within their rights (and, it might be argued, their sovereign responsibilities) to loudly grandstand and object to details that leak out regarding another state's espionage activities. Why would we expect anything less? That's simply not sensible. There can be legitimate outrage expressed over leaks of espionage because it could actually come as a surprise the depths to which a nation goes when spying on its allies. There could be other cultural and sociopolitical shifts among allied countries in one area, such as the EU, who have in various other ways been engaged in a long process of protecting civilian privacies and, in such a setting, to not engage political theater by expressing contempt for the actions of a state such as America--who shows such blatant disregard for personal privacies and who is caught within their spy's nets--violate the publicly proclaimed principles that the citizens of foreign states hold dear. If the leaders do not object, they could face political backlash.

Nobody doubts that all states engage in espionage against their neighbors, friendly or not. But that does not mean that the release of details showing a much heavier spying apparatus is deployed by the power with the greatest hegemony and strongest power position isn't going to make its allies feel very uncomfortable.

Beyond that, what's most alarming is that Americans truly do not give a fuck. Citizens of other nations, however, do not think like Americans. They've been working on the alliance and diplomacy thing for centuries. They approach things differently, having long learned many lessons through the rise and fall of empires.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#87
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to have missed the part where it was suggested that only the US is guilty. If there existed a solid body of evidence to disclose to the world that Germany, France, or Russia was carrying out such actions on a wide scale, that would dominate the press in under a minute. This is the US receiving equal treatment given a preponderance of evidence. This is how the press should be.

I'm not suggesting this isn't news, it certainly is. Just that it's not out of the ordinary for either the NSA or governments in general. It's news in that we got caught.

Not caught, exactly. Espionage is well understood and expected in international relations.

The news is the depth and breadth of the NSA's activities, and that it is being shown with hard evidence, instead of the typical former-agent-speaks-vaguely-about-capabilities that typically show up in this area.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#88
post #54
post #3

Jay Carney issued a statement that said the US "is not monitoring and will not monitor" the German chancellor's communications. This is probably the best tell the US government has for sniffing out the bullshit. If they don't explicitly deny the event occurring in the past, it happened. Reminds me of a Spaceballs scene: Colonel Sandurz: Now. You're looking at now, sir. Everything that happens now, is happening now. D…

When I heard the "is not monitoring and will not monitor" I thougth "We didn't, and we will not do it again"

This is a classic non-denial denial:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denial_denial

In these cases, I think what is important is what is not being said. For example, they aren't saying: we did not monitor the Chancellor's phone calls in the past. We didn't and won't record other senior EU officials, etc. The problem is that journalists do not pry enough, because if they are too curious, they will eventually lose privileged access to these government sources.

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#89
post #84
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All we know at this point is that the U.S. isn't doing it now... Actually, we don't know that - we only know they said they're not. Given that Clapper flat out lied about surveillance at the start of all this that isn't worth much.

Sure, but by that definition we don't "know" anything we didn't directly observe ourselves (and even that is at least suspect), and I can't do much by going philosopher-style on what we really know or not.

And that's the rub for them, right? They've totally lost all credibility when they say "Trust us, we're reasonable" or "Actually, we're not doing that". We can only make decisions or form opinions when we have a reasonable basis on which to do so, and why would anyone believe them now?

Re: NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders

#90
post #14

What is the strategy here? Of releasing information about NSA activities with foreign nations? Seems like it is mixing a potentially illegal activity (domestic spying) with their designated job. Doesn't every country try to do this. The NSA personnel could very well have undergone considerable risk to get this sort of thing going on. On the other hand, Joe public sees Snowden fleeing and chilling out in Russia/China…

> Definitely Snowden:0 and NSA:1 in this case.

You think this release definitely helps the NSA? If so, then you think Alexander, et al. are definitely happy about this release?

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