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Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

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Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#91

Post by AFrench »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #51
jabbernotty wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of what you mentioned here, if not most, seems specific to the USA, from my western European point of view. Do you know of any explanation for that?

Visibility for one. The French prison system is horrible, the British prison system is also pretty bad. Beyond that I'd have to blame the war on drugs and general societal attitudes. The general attitude seems to be that once you have been adjudicated a "bad guy" and are put into the prison population anything that happens to you is fair game.

The French prison system is severely underfunded leading to very poor living conditions, but there is none of this attitude that it's OK for people to be raped if they're criminals. The statistics for rape in US prisons are absolutely appalling; I have never seen such data for French prisons, but I would guess, or at least hope, that it is much less common.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#92

Post by _account »

w_t_payne wrote: post #75

The nature of America's prison system is driven by the fact that middle class white people vote for politicians and policies that put poor black people through a cruel, inhumane and all-too-usual system of torture and deprivation. Is unusual sadism a national characteristic? I do not want to think so, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

I didn't know that the laws so clearly stated that black people are singled out to be tortured.

Can you provide at least one reference to this atrocity?

[I'm guessing you can't]

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#93

Post by _account »

Prison is society's recourse for anti-social behavior. Does it have to be a violent and horrible place? No. The residents tend to make it that. In addition, I am against pampering in anyway, with my tax dollars, people whom I've had to remove from proper society...for anti-social behavior.

Prison is supposed to be a deterrent. My biggest gripe is that I have to pay for it at all. I support banishment or death.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#94

Post by kasra »

alan_cx wrote: post #43

Get past the comedy, listen to the facts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI The facts stated have never been refuted. Be ashamed. Either Americans are the most criminal in the world, or the US justice system has a real problem. I mean, worse than Iran? Worse than China? South Africa? Are Americans really that bad? Perhaps now we know a certain hacker preferred death. I know I would. As a British citizen, I…

"I mean, worse than Iran? Worse than China? South Africa? Are Americans really that bad?"

You should be ashamed of your prejudices (obviously I'm not commenting on US justice system here).

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#95

Post by dllthomas »

munin wrote: post #72
scrapcode wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

if this view was correct, then surely countries with even harsher penalties for breaking the law, such as even worse prisons or death, would have less crime than the united states, right?

While I disagree with the parent, this is not a solid argument. It's entirely plausible, without further data introduced into the conversation, that (say) Americans have a higher penchant for crime, and so our prisons need to be correspondingly harsher, and simply aren't harsher enough.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#96

Post by RyanMcGreal »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #57
scrapcode wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

A very Hobbesian view of society, I see. Not one I subscribe to, nor one that, from my experience, is reflective of reality. Prison experiences in the US are pretty horrific in the norm, and yet there are more people in prison than ever (as a percentage of the population), and many of them are there due to fairly minor or victimless crimes. There is some sort of dissonance there, and I think it comes down to the fact…

Sidenote because I agree with the main thrust of your argument, but:

> A very Hobbesian view of society, I see.

Not at all. The central argument in Hobbes' Leviathan is that most people are basically decent and reasonable, but that we need a strong, consistent rule of law in which to relax our guard and build personal, civic and business relationships with each other in a positive sum game where everyone benefits.

It is the fear of violence and death in the absence of the rule of law that leads to the Hobbesian trap: a tragic situation in which someone who doesn't want trouble ends up pre-emptively raiding someone else who also doesn't want trouble, simply because they have no way to trust one other.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#97

Post by guard-of-terra »

yardie wrote: post #88
guard-of-terra wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, do you get books? I think books can get you a long way. The prison system we have around the world stimulates creating "professional" criminals by placing criminals among themselves. If we to break this cycle, we should get everyone a prison cell without inmates but with a window and books they can read.

Why even bother with books and solitary. Just flash freeze them like in Demolition Man. The prison system doesn't stimulate anyone. Crimes are primarily committed because of motive, opportunity, and/or mental illness. Poverty is a great motivator. If you're an ex-convict your opportunity to get a respectable job drops precipitously, to be a drug dealer requires no prior experience and no background check. I'm not con…

This is pretty US-centered point of view, I invite you to look upon it from distance.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#98

Post by khafra »

scrapcode wrote: post #49
InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

> Prison has to be scary. It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. It's the other ultimate consequence, along side of death. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't.

If your theory were accurate, countries like Norway--with its extremely humane prisons (http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.htm...) would be crime-ridden hellholes.

But Norway's homicide rate is 1/10th that of the United States, and other crime statistics are similarly low: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

So it seems you are, in fact, wrong; and inflicting horrifying suffering indiscriminately on anyone who goes to prison does more harm than good.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#99

Post by rthomas6 »

_account wrote: post #93

Prison is society's recourse for anti-social behavior. Does it have to be a violent and horrible place? No. The residents tend to make it that. In addition, I am against pampering in anyway, with my tax dollars, people whom I've had to remove from proper society...for anti-social behavior. Prison is supposed to be a deterrent. My biggest gripe is that I have to pay for it at all. I support banishment or death.

Does this view not presuppose that the exhibitors of the anti-social behavior cannot be fixed or remade into useful members of society? If you believe that, fine, but if you think that some could be reformed, why is that not worth the money? "Reform", in my mind, has nothing to do with pampering. It could be even more torturous than now...For example A Clockwork Orange. Not that I'm advocating that.

Does this view also not presuppose that all prisoners have exhibited anti-social behavior? I think we can both say that this is not the case. Although, prisons tend to somewhat separate the two populations.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#100

Post by rthomas6 »

_account wrote: post #92
w_t_payne wrote: post #75

The nature of America's prison system is driven by the fact that middle class white people vote for politicians and policies that put poor black people through a cruel, inhumane and all-too-usual system of torture and deprivation. Is unusual sadism a national characteristic? I do not want to think so, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

I didn't know that the laws so clearly stated that black people are singled out to be tortured. Can you provide at least one reference to this atrocity? [I'm guessing you can't]

I do not agree with the hyperbole of the OP, but there are a disproportionate amount of black people in prison, black people get on average longer sentences for the same crimes, and drugs forms more commonly used by blacks carry longer sentences than the same drug in other forms (crack vs. cocaine). Are black people singled out to be tortured? No. Is the US prison system racist? The evidence points in that direction.
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