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Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

krugman.blogs.nytimes.com

91–100 of 102 posts

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#91
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today's currencies are based on government. They are fiat money in that sense, ok. Bitcoin is "pure fiat" as in "based on trust of the people, by the people". Notice how the government word is absent. I don't think we had that before - at least, not in a way that can not be easily abused by the government. [there are some counter examples, independant central banks following a monetarist policy of say 4.5% M3 aggrega…

While I haven't completely read through this entire essay I do have a small observation: I find it fascinating how much distrust for Government and banking systems fuels your passion for Bitcoin. So long as capitalism exists in its current state currency will just be an instrument of capitalism's will. Whether that be Bitcoin, USD or Disney Dollars. Capitalism is what inspires transaction fees, denying health insuran…

I have a beef, but with inefficiency due to wilful stupidity.

You could be right- there was even a well written essay I read about how governments could try and turn bitcoin into an oppressive financial system, due to the ease it provides to track every transaction.

Maybe I'll have a beef with capitalism if, after the implementation of a system which trims down what I perceive to be a self-made problem (inflation fuelling governments destructive policies), I still notice persisting issues. I can't say for now. The experiment is just beginning :-)

I hope I do not have any blinding faith in any political system. It just seems to me that capitalism is what works best, and could work better with a libertarian approach. Just like Thomas Sowel says - I don't have faith, but proofs. (Still, this doesn't mean there can't be better proofs or better things we just don't know yet.)

So I would not say I hate the banking system, no more than I hate horse buggies : it just seems to me that cars are more efficient. I would hate it if horse buggies were mandatory and cars forbidden, because it would be a loss of efficiency for society.

The current banking system performs an important role, in an efficient way, but it will hopefully made obsolete and replaced by something more efficient.

It is likely that governments and capitalism will still be involved, but between governments and capitalism, I know what I fear the most.

It's not the self interested capitalists who acts following their best interests, doing things as you said, like taking away someones houses, but the governments who takes a "moral superiority" position, use their power to benefit some well connected ones, pretend to act in the common good and violating both the letter and the spirit of the law - all the while doing the very same things.

At least the capitalist doing these things is honest in the reasons why they are done. And the "good ones", Ayn Rand style capitalist, do worry about the letter and the spirit of the laws and of a contract.

She said that beautifully : "I am not primarily an advocate of capitalism, but of egoism; and I am not primarily an advocate of egoism, but of reason. If one recognizes the supremacy of reason and applies it consistently, all the rest follows."

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#92
What is the opportunity cost for bitcoin mining using different techniques? (ie the next most valuable thing that can be done with the hardware). I would guess it is a small fraction of the value of a bitcoin. I'm pretty sure it didn't cost bitcoin's market cap of ~1 billion in computing resources to mine all of bitcoins we have today. I wonder what it did cost?

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#93
post #29

Maybe, just maybe, it's not Adam Smith who hates bitcoin like this misleading title suggest, but Krugman. The guy may have a nobel prize, but his strong leftist views seems to be clouding his judgement. Never before in history was there anthing like bitcoin. It's not a commodity like gold - is is pure fiat money, fully based on trust. Hoarding gold or silver or any metal or rare thing was a bad idea because of the al…

"Never before in history was there anthing like bitcoin"

The problem here is that you believe that bitcoin is being treated differently than anything that's come before. Its booms and busts are a sign that it is being used/abused for its familiar qualities, and not as much for its novel ones.

"Just like Gandhi say - first they ignore you, then they fight you, then you win"

Except for the many, many situations where "they" ignore you, then they trample you. There is not necessarily any step 3.

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#94
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I haven't completely read through this entire essay I do have a small observation: I find it fascinating how much distrust for Government and banking systems fuels your passion for Bitcoin. So long as capitalism exists in its current state currency will just be an instrument of capitalism's will. Whether that be Bitcoin, USD or Disney Dollars. Capitalism is what inspires transaction fees, denying health insuran…

I have a beef, but with inefficiency due to wilful stupidity. You could be right- there was even a well written essay I read about how governments could try and turn bitcoin into an oppressive financial system, due to the ease it provides to track every transaction. Maybe I'll have a beef with capitalism if, after the implementation of a system which trims down what I perceive to be a self-made problem (inflation fue…

What you call inefficiency others call profit.

The more times money moves around the more money others stand to gain. The economy as a whole does well when moving between parties at a consistent rate.

Eliminating the inefficient transaction doesn't just hurt profit. It hurts the very core of how our economic models currently work.

That being said Bitcoin is currently no threat to that system. It's hard to imagine it ever being honestly.

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#95
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "the history backed by the most computing power wins"? Doesn't each transaction need to be verified by at least 6 miners? Are you saying that each transaction that is verified has many miners competing to verify it and the one with the most gpu power wins the race? And if so, does that mean that the gpu that won the race an then say it is verified even if to say it is an incorrect transaction woul…

Bitcoin transactions are stored in blocks, which are then chained together by cryptographic hashes. ( That is, each block contains a hash of the previous one.) To build a valid block, a miner needs to verify that all transactions in the block are valid and solve a cryptographic problem, which requires 10 minutes for the aggregate computing power of the entire network. On the other hand, checking that the block chain…

Yes so we are on the same page. The most computing power in the whole ecosystem i.e mining system.

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#96
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a beef, but with inefficiency due to wilful stupidity. You could be right- there was even a well written essay I read about how governments could try and turn bitcoin into an oppressive financial system, due to the ease it provides to track every transaction. Maybe I'll have a beef with capitalism if, after the implementation of a system which trims down what I perceive to be a self-made problem (inflation fue…

What you call inefficiency others call profit. The more times money moves around the more money others stand to gain. The economy as a whole does well when moving between parties at a consistent rate. Eliminating the inefficient transaction doesn't just hurt profit. It hurts the very core of how our economic models currently work. That being said Bitcoin is currently no threat to that system. It's hard to imagine it…

I'm not sure I understand your point.

It seems inconsistent with walrasian pure and perfect competition, where profits tend to zero and the optimal outcomes are achieved.

Eliminating the inefficiencies, ie profit in pure and perfect competition, is the way the system works - non null profits attract new businesses. That's basic economics, with very special edge cases (ex - natural monopolices)

I'm not sure exactly why or how economy as a whole would do better with more inefficiencies at each point, and money moving more as you suggest.

Are you referring to the equation of the velocity of money (MV=PQ) ?

It says nothing about how desirable the outcome is (ex: broken window fallacy)

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#97
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly not being used as a currency, its original intention. It's being used by speculators to get rich. Sure you might find a few examples of buyers and sellers using bitcoin currency, but you'll find a lot more speculators buying and selling bitcoins to profit from the spreads.

It is being used as a currency, and any metric on this far exceeds where people thought it would be a few years ago. It's also having massive adoption from a wide number of people. The reason the price is moving is not "speculation" as people seem to assume, but adoption. MtGox said they were getting 20,000 new accounts a day recently. By definition, new accounts are not "speculators" putting in trades to manipulate…

You seem to be hellbanned; I'm not sure why. This is the last comment of yours I can reply to.

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#98
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you call inefficiency others call profit. The more times money moves around the more money others stand to gain. The economy as a whole does well when moving between parties at a consistent rate. Eliminating the inefficient transaction doesn't just hurt profit. It hurts the very core of how our economic models currently work. That being said Bitcoin is currently no threat to that system. It's hard to imagine it…

I'm not sure I understand your point. It seems inconsistent with walrasian pure and perfect competition, where profits tend to zero and the optimal outcomes are achieved. Eliminating the inefficiencies, ie profit in pure and perfect competition, is the way the system works - non null profits attract new businesses. That's basic economics, with very special edge cases (ex - natural monopolices) I'm not sure exactly wh…

Pure and perfect competition has never existed in the real world, however - it's a theoretical modeling tool to remove complexities when describing interactions. The real world has to deal with asymmetric information and product differentiation. In other words, price is not the only signal driving supply and demand.

It also has to deal with the dynamic disequilibrium that is caused by entrepreneurship and innovation, which "creatively destroys" previous markets in favor of new ones. It is this process that is the source of all profit and economic growth, at least according to Schumpeter.

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#99
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never before in history was there anthing like bitcoin. It's not a commodity like gold - is is pure fiat money, fully based on trust That's what most currencies are today - symbols fully based on trust. > In fact, by reducing friction, making transaction costs almost negligible, it will help this very thing! What friction are you referring to? > The only real problem is for governments, who won't be able to use the…

Today's currencies are based on government. They are fiat money in that sense, ok. Bitcoin is "pure fiat" as in "based on trust of the people, by the people". Notice how the government word is absent. I don't think we had that before - at least, not in a way that can not be easily abused by the government. [there are some counter examples, independant central banks following a monetarist policy of say 4.5% M3 aggrega…

I want to hone in on a couple of points that may better crystallize where I feel your analyses is unconvincing.

1. The Great Depression and deflation is a case of a general glut -- ie a lack of demand. This wasn't supposed to happen in an economy, but can from time to time due to problems with the "symbol economy" of money and credit messing up the "real economy" of goods and services. This was Keynes' insight. This has nothing to do with agricultural surpluses, and there is no evidence that depressions will be made obsolete.

2. I also suspect you may be underestimating the size and influence of the Financial sector and people's general desire to make money. Reducing friction in transaction costs will not change or reduce the desire for specilation or arbitrage. That usually has required governmental control. Our current economic crisis is based on banks making a lot of bad, questionable bets on mortgage debt - fed by poor ratings agencies, lax regulation, a housing bubble, and monetary policy that encouraged a real estate bubble. Technology and poor regulation made us all interconnected and fragile.

3. I also suspect you may be overestimating the reduction in transaction costs that bitcoin enables. Electronic funds transfer is pretty frictionless these days, as is FOREX. Large amounts need to be flagged for potential criminal, fraud, or terrorist uses - do we really want to give up those checks?

Most transaction costs have to do with human capital - we tend to be slow, yet indispensable for many initiatives.

4. Stagflation was caused by a pile of supply shocks in the Nixon era in combination with very expansionist monetary policy assumptions in the early 70s. The inflation part was fixed as soon as Volker decided to kill inflation in 1982 by tightening the money supply. The stagnation got better by the mid-late 80s. Note that Reagan was arguably the mother of all stimulators (cutting taxes AND spending like mad). But typically Keynesian dont encourage deficit backed stimulus -- except when dealing with liquidity trap (deflationary) conditions like the Great Depression, and um, now.

5. Encouraging full employment through economic policy is quite a bit different from holding back progress to keep workers employed.

That's social policy, and a different argument - how do you insulate society from the "creative destruction" of capitalism? Go too far and you rid yourself of capitalism's core benefit (growth through innovation). But fail to protect people in the short run, and you have regional unrest and revolt, as we've seen in 18th and 19th century attempts to impose free markets on traditional communities and exchange systems. Or in Thatcher's crushing of the UK coal industry and unions in the early 80s.

On the other hand, encouraging full employment through monetary and fiscal policy is just another way of promoting an efficient market that takes advantage of all the resources (eg labour) that is available to it. It is underproducing if people aren't working and want to. Perhaps that is structural (people need training, education, etc) but in the current global recession all quantitative evidence points to it not as structural but rather a lack of demand - ie. people sitting on cash instead of spending it, which makes a lot of sense when you realize this was triggered by a debt crisis. When everyone rich is paying off their debts, people aren't going to be working as much. Unless, of course you realize that it doesn't have to be this way - since interest rates are 0 and inflation is negative.

Re: Adam Smith Hates Bitcoin

#100
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you call inefficiency others call profit. The more times money moves around the more money others stand to gain. The economy as a whole does well when moving between parties at a consistent rate. Eliminating the inefficient transaction doesn't just hurt profit. It hurts the very core of how our economic models currently work. That being said Bitcoin is currently no threat to that system. It's hard to imagine it…

I'm not sure I understand your point. It seems inconsistent with walrasian pure and perfect competition, where profits tend to zero and the optimal outcomes are achieved. Eliminating the inefficiencies, ie profit in pure and perfect competition, is the way the system works - non null profits attract new businesses. That's basic economics, with very special edge cases (ex - natural monopolices) I'm not sure exactly wh…

Banks don't really want to be more efficient and charge less fees. Banks are essential to any system (capitalism) that requires a currency. Nobody would want to be a bank if they could not charge fees. No bank would offer loans or any kind of securities without some backing and protections. Since Bitcoin is finite, semi-anonymous and not backed by a central bank or government banks will never have those protections. So instruments that are essential to our economy like car loans, mortgages, etc. will not be possible.

Does anybody really want that?

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