Earlier quoted context omitted.
Don't worry. Your cobelievers already did it. I guess I just don't have the "sophisticated" European point of view that says that millions killed by government don't count.
It's not relevant to the conversation. We're talking about individuals. Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_mili... seems to have a lot more action than the part of your page since the late 18th century, so I think you're wrong either way.
Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
91–100 of 164 posts
Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
#92Nothing to do with liberty, the constitution or anything...
Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
perhaps we could employ retired police officers as "school guards". They have the training. Many of them are still in their 40s and 50s.
In some states, non-active LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) would be prevented by law from being armed, especially as private citizens on school property. H.R.218 is not widely accepted enough to provide for this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_Enforcement_Officers_Safety... ) In my state many middle and high schools have assigned SROs (School Resource Officers / Deputies), whose primary role is not protection, but…
To which one of the first comments is "How are we going to pay for these SROs in Elemtary Schools now?"
My suggestion would be fewer police activities in other nations.
Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
#94To put it in nerd-speak, the intolerance for any given death is a function V with multiple inputs. (I find this extremely distasteful but bear with me.) For cars and smoking, the output of that function scales quite slowly; we're mostly OK with those because we like cars and if you smoke it's your funeral. Note that we already spend a lot of money on automotive safety, so arguably we still want to bring those numbers down. For instance, look at recent safety-oriented recalls from various manufacturers. Likewise, we spend money to reduce teen smoking, et al. So even then those don't really wash as an example of hypocrisy around the value of human life.
For the murder of multiple people via gratuitously overpowered firearms, you might argue V scales linearly, perhaps even quadratically. Maybe V takes a time-delta which scales V even faster with smaller deltas; Aurora is still fresh in many people's minds, as are numerous other incidents.
For multiple children under the age of 8 gunned down by a madman with a high-capacity assault rifle, V might scale factorially. We as a society try to place a very high value on the lives and well-being of children.
In other words, you're going to have to do a hell of a lot better than simply comparing inputs to V, and a small input to V for some category of deaths is not in itself a justification to ignore it. The author has committed the fallacy of looking at morality and society primarily or even solely through the lens of statistics.
The author's laziness is also ironic, all things considered. The UK and Australia are other western industrialized nations quite similar to ours, in a great many respects. They've experienced some success in reducing gun violence since the '90s, when they banned private handgun ownership. The irony is that the author's blindness here is a far better example of magical thinking about how regulation might or might not work in the US.
Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is plausible, but on the other hand, how rare are fires in schools? We extensively prepare for those (and as it goes, something like 19 out of the top 20 mass murders in the US were arsons). "Readily available" can be addressed by concealed handguns that aren't too easy to get to; you might have to give an attacker a "first bite of the apple" in favor of making them too accessible. On the other hand, a few M4s in…
how rare are fires in schools? We extensively prepare for those Teachers/staff prepare for those by knowing how to evacuate students from the schools and calling 911. They aren't expected to actually fight fires, aside from using a fire extinguisher. "Readily available" can be addressed by concealed handguns that aren't too easy to get to; you might have to give an attacker a "first bite of the apple" in favor of mak…
As for "effective and safe", so you'd think, and so did I (who started shooting in 1st grade in 1967 (sic)), but civilians with little or no training have demonstrated an amazing ability to responsibly use firearms in self-defense.
Police in general are not useful comparisons. They're required by their jobs to go in harm's way and frequently use their service handguns. The NYPD is a particularly poor example, they are run by people who don't understand guns and equip their men with ones that are particularly hard to shoot accurately---as you sort of note they prefer this vs. negligent discharges---and we learned after the recent debacle that their training, initial and continuing, is really subpar. And there are much better ways to avoid negligent discharges, the NYPD is the outlier here.
That's also why I suggested the option of M4 carbines. Long guns are a LOT easier to shoot correctly, skill with them doesn't seem to degrade like it's said to do with most people with handguns, with good choices of ammo they're more effective and less dangerous than handguns, etc.
Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not a competition among countries, it's about making the US better. But you conclude there is no need to fix the current problem. Comparing America to other Developed countries clearly shows there is.
Yes we should probably take action, but that doesn't mean banning guns or making tougher gun laws is necessarily the correct action. If you want to compare to other developed countries, Switzerland has a high gun ownership rate (about 45 guns per 100 people vs 88 per 100 for the US) yet their gun homicide rate is one-seventh what it is in the United States. So if it were just about guns one would think that Switzerla…
I simply said it's very clear there is a problem and something needs to be done about it.
Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
#97I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…
America has got to be the only country in the industrialized world where it seems reasonable to respond to mass shootings (and shootings in general) by suggesting that more people should have guns. Here's a scatter plot of firearms per 100,000 and gun homocides per 100 for OECD countries: http://i.imgur.com/ZAI3T.png Needless to say, the dot in the top right corner is the USA> Data is from here: http://www.guardian.c…
I feel this is instructive because with all of the guns already in private hands in the US if they were banned outright today you'd end up with an enormous and uncontrollable black market. The same type of black market that exists in Mexico.
Even in the US now, the vast majority of gun crimes are committed with illegally obtained guns. Something on the order of greater than 90%.
Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not a competition among countries, it's about making the US better. But you conclude there is no need to fix the current problem. Comparing America to other Developed countries clearly shows there is.
Where did the author conclude there was no need to fix the current problem? My understanding of the article is that there is no clear answer to the problem, given that every potential solution has loads of potential side effects, some of them with the potential to outweigh the positives of the original solution. That doesn't mean it doesn't need to be fixed; just that the fix should be driven by rational thought and…
Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
America has got to be the only country in the industrialized world where it seems reasonable to respond to mass shootings (and shootings in general) by suggesting that more people should have guns. Here's a scatter plot of firearms per 100,000 and gun homocides per 100 for OECD countries: http://i.imgur.com/ZAI3T.png Needless to say, the dot in the top right corner is the USA> Data is from here: http://www.guardian.c…
I believe this is because America was founded by violence, and the "I'll shoot you if you try to take what's mine" mentality that continues to this day. It's not a peaceful place.
I'm not sure what you have in mind when you say "founded by violence"...
Australia was at least as wicked with their aboriginal populations - and has a vastly lower level of gun violence.
The Netherlands was birthed in a revolution lasting 8 decades, and also has negligible gun violence.
Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not relevant to the conversation. We're talking about individuals. Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_mili... seems to have a lot more action than the part of your page since the late 18th century, so I think you're wrong either way.
It's absolutely relevant, since the purpose of the Second amendment is largely protection against governments, not critters, varmints, or even criminals.