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Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

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Re: Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

#91

Not enmeshed in game development and have only done it very lightly: what takes a game like this 1.5 - 2 years to finish? Like at a minimum, it's art, sound, graphics, and programming. If they are re-using assets, that's one of them ~done. So what's taking them 2 years? My background is in SaaS type stuff and if I went to who hired me and said it would take 2 years to build out a non-cutting edge product I am pretty…

In my experience, business software has narrow and predictable use cases. Note taking: You need to add, delete and update notes and the real meat of the product is usually in the note organization. Even SAP has use cases simple in nature: Account for milk cartons sold. The use cases just grow complex once you work in 30 countries or more. "Pay the right taxes on milk cartons sold" becomes tricky.

However, this is parallelizable: You can work on all 30 countries at once and ship when ready. You can work on taking and organizing notes in parallel. You can work on scaling in parallel. You can streamline UX in parallel while introducing tagging, or trees, or groups, or anything.

A game, and especially a narrative game, has an intrinsic linear component, the plot. You can work on a certain amount in parallel, sure: Once the rough shape of the plot is laid out, you can start working on assets, necessary engine features, sounds, dialog in parallel.

But you still have a strong need that a player or play tester has a good progression from act one to act two to act three, and a good progression from puzzle one to puzzle two to puzzle three. This takes a lot of very slow iteration.

This involves human testing by nature. You get a playtest every few months, if you have the money. You can easily throw more CI hardware to run your integration tests more often for more countries. Playtesters, especially those who don't know the game, are very, very limited.

Then you also want characters and settings to be consistent across the plot. If done well, this takes a lot of adjustments and refinement both back and forth. Sometimes the setting of Act three requires a character to have a certain trait, and that trait should be developed, so you now go back to Acts one and two to see if you can build up the character -- without knocking down the entire house of cards already in place.

And once you get to polish and atmosphere, it becomes even harder and more time consuming, because then you need new playtesters even more.

From a past job and working on some features, I spent a day or two presenting like 6-8 different options, and then spent half a day in different testing groups to figure out which procedural generation option "feels the best" for what the game designer wants. With a better spec, that could've been an hour. This made players more excited. Probably.

Re: Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

#93
post #3

I've been playing Thimbleweed Park on Android recently. In general I do love point and click puzzle games but my feelings on this one are very mixed. * The writing is hit or miss * The story is just serviceable * Only about 20% of the jokes land for me * The constant 4th wall breaking is just bad And then there's the puzzles. Maybe I made a mistake in selecting hard mode at the start but it's got the worst of the gen…

I played it when it was released and mostly enjoyed it, though I can't remember what difficulty setting I picked. I bought it mostly because I like Mark Ferrari's art, but ended up completing it. Some characters and jokes were intensely annoying, especially Ransome. I did like Delores, though. Afterwards, I revisited some LucasArts games I'd played before (Monkey Island 1 and 2), and tried my hand with some I hadn't…

> (monkey wrench, anyone?)

Tell me about it. I played the French translated version, and the pun does not translate at all. "Monkey wrench" was translated as the french equivalent, "clé à molette", which does not reference monkeys at all. I remember being stuck for ages, and finally checking the solution online and concluding that the only way to find the solution is to systematically try all combinations as there is no way to apply logic. Only years later I realised that in english, "clé à molette" is "monkey wrench".

Re: Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They need an editor who will go through and identify the puzzles that must be solved through brute force, and require alteration.

> They need an editor who will go through and identify the puzzles that must be solved through brute force Barely any adventure game has a puzzle that requires brute-forcing. The problem is rather that sometimes players don't have the same kind of thinking as the developers. This issue can be aggravated if the player comes from a different culture or is playing a translated version of the game; for a famous example:…

"read the author's mind" is a puzzle type closely related to, and in practice often overlapping with brute force.

If the author has a solution in mind but it is not properly hinted, for most players brute force is the only option. In the case of point and click adventure games, if you don't think "I could stick the bubble gum to the mouse to run through the wall and grab the key" you are left trying every combination of item and action, which isn't fun.

Re: Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

#95
post #55
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Sam and Max episodes were pretty good... partially because the episodic format forced the designers to keep things reeled in. A single 3 hour episode can't get to the point that you have a couple hundred possible solutions to the problem and nothing but brute force to resolve it. This style of game died for a reason. I'm not saying it needs to stay dead, but I do think every entrant to the genre needs to grapple…

> Fate of Atlantis was the best A better Indy movie than the last 2, IMO. I go back and replay it every so often. > The Sam and Max episodes were pretty good Some of them were funnier than others. It helps if you were attached to the characters having read the comics or watched the show. (The comics had the most concentrated humor - see: the comic about Dracula) I recall the episode featuring the Abraham Lincoln stat…

People keep saying that about Atlantis but why can’t the game be enough without a movie remake .. don’t you all want new stories? Isn’t that why Disney star wars sucks?

Re: Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

#96
post #55
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Sam and Max episodes were pretty good... partially because the episodic format forced the designers to keep things reeled in. A single 3 hour episode can't get to the point that you have a couple hundred possible solutions to the problem and nothing but brute force to resolve it. This style of game died for a reason. I'm not saying it needs to stay dead, but I do think every entrant to the genre needs to grapple…

> Fate of Atlantis was the best A better Indy movie than the last 2, IMO. I go back and replay it every so often. > The Sam and Max episodes were pretty good Some of them were funnier than others. It helps if you were attached to the characters having read the comics or watched the show. (The comics had the most concentrated humor - see: the comic about Dracula) I recall the episode featuring the Abraham Lincoln stat…

Adventure games can have amazing stories - I still think Star Trek: A Final Unity could be a great movie, or novel even.

Re: Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

#97
post #89

I enjoyed Thimbleweed Park personally, however for all those old Monkey Island fans like myself I'd encourage you to read this[0] analysis of the game series and lore to uncover the secret of Monkey Island by DM81 I found it a really enjoyable read and a plausible take, so I thought it was worth sharing here It's relevant as it's posted in the Thimbleweed Park forums ;) -[0]: https://forums.thimbleweedpark.com/t/retu…

That link was amazing.

I felt that Return to Monkey Island was a bit of a cop-out.

But the multi-layer, Mulholland Drive-esq, storytelling is a real eye-opener.

It appears that his multi-layered storytelling found its way into Thimbleweed Park and surface-level understanding probably won't get you far.

Re: Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

#98
post #15

I would have preferred the same team working on a new IP. Thimbleweed Park 1 has possibly the worst ending of a game, ever. Just an endless series of being told that I am a big dummy for having suspended my disbelief. I see no way of believably returning to that world without the retcon of a lifetime.

Yes, the ending was kind of lame. Worse, it has been done before, again by Ron Gilbert. It is practically a rehash of the Monkey Island 2 ending, which got us nowhere in the long run.

He repeated the same trope in Return to Monkey Island. At this point, I expect all of his endings to be abstract and meta. I don't like it...

Re: Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

#99

Please let it not be meta. Please oh please oh please. Thimbleweek Park 1 was nothing but meta. Return to Monkey Island was corpo art and meta. "The real treasure was the friends you made along the way, computer game player". Thanks Ron. I've forgotten the ending of The Cave, it was probably meta too, but at least it had some good slapstick.

I gave up the belief he could abstain from that after he ruined Return.

Yeah, me too. He did it once on MI2, fine. But again and again? I just wish he could tell a complete story for once.

Re: Ron Gilbert started production on Thimbleweed Park 2

#100
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fate of Atlantis was the best A better Indy movie than the last 2, IMO. I go back and replay it every so often. > The Sam and Max episodes were pretty good Some of them were funnier than others. It helps if you were attached to the characters having read the comics or watched the show. (The comics had the most concentrated humor - see: the comic about Dracula) I recall the episode featuring the Abraham Lincoln stat…

People keep saying that about Atlantis but why can’t the game be enough without a movie remake .. don’t you all want new stories? Isn’t that why Disney star wars sucks?

Well... We got new stories with Indy and they were less good. lol
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