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Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

thesignalist.io

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Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#91

Post by mc3301 »

irishcoffee wrote: post #9
hyperific wrote: post #7

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging

I keep a rubber duck on my desk and have for at least 10 years, because of this. Great conversation starter.

Harvard's cs50 had a "Rubber Duck debugger" which was an LLM trained on all their educational content with specific guardrails in place to not give any answers. It would chat back with you planting little ideas to help push your understanding just a little bit.

I loved it so much, because I was learning programming completely by myself usually after midnight while taking care of a new-born. I had nobody to pair-program with, no lead dev nor teacher to speak with.

It was years ago, but such an amazing implementation of an LLM for education.

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#92

Post by zahlman »

Havoc wrote: post #20

I don't think the out loud or someone listening / reacting matters at all here. Suspect it's entirely this: >The thought that was comfortable as a vague impression has to become a sentence, and sentences have structure. It's not unlike what people like PG say about writing improving thinking...it's the being forced to go from fuzzy directional notions to something you can put on paper in that will stand up to critiqu…

From my own experience chatting with LLMs: reading the responses definitely does help with thinking, even when you can see obvious flaws or hallucinations. It gives you something to think about, which a rubber duck can't do.

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#93

Post by zahlman »

jboggan wrote: post #17
kodesko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duckly deserved to actually work. There’s a small irony here: the closest study I found to this, robots specifically built to simulate attentive listening, found they performed no better than an actual inanimate rubber duck for adult engineers. The mechanical signal of listening doesn’t seem to be the active ingredient. Makes me wonder if Duckly would have needed real disagreement to close a gap a duck can’t, not jus…

You're probably on to something with the value of disagreement. I think it's one reason why chatting with current models doesn't create the same stimulation as rubber-ducking used to bring. The models are typically too quick to agree and amplify what you think rather than truly break it down and push back. And thanks for saying it should have worked, I agree. My chagrin has increased over the years as I have realized…

I think agreement has value here too. An LLM that's starting to get a bit sycophantic will rephrase your ideas in a few different ways, and seeing the different presentations is helpful for reconsideration.

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#94

Post by zahlman »

mc3301 wrote: post #90
jackyinger wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I draw a lot to figure out engineering details. I used to make beautiful drawings in diagramming software (draw.io and the lil). But man, it took a lot of time. Now I scribble on printer paper unless it’s something I plan to share.

Fellows devs at my company think I'm strange, but I always have a cheap coil-notebook. It has diagrams, notes, doodles, minutes, checklists, mostly not even in order. I try to remember to write the date at the top of each page. I just counted, 11 notebooks (b5, 60 pages) in two years, so just about a new notebook every 2 months. Funny thing is, coworkers will now ask to use my pen and paper to flesh-out something tog…

> even an ipad with a whiteboard app aren't good replacements for me.

Curious. My first thought would have been "... because the line is physically displaced from the pen, of course"; but that doesn't apply there.

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#95

Post by 9x39 »

MaysonL wrote: post #84
slwvx wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the out loud or someone listening / reacting matters at all here. Suspect it's entirely this: >The thought that was comfortable as a vague impression has to become a sentence, and sentences have structure. I often construct full sentences in my head. And have conversations with my mental model of some other person. In full sentences

Different people’s minds work very differently. More differently than most people imagine.

I was reading the parent and thinking the same thing - I can't do that. There's no "voice" in my head like some people describe. If I want to model speaking like a mock conversation, I have to write it or ... speak it, even silently, to convert from the visuals that are my thought.

As an aside, I end up having to organize certain types of thoughts through speaking, which requires some adaptations and limiting functions :-)

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#96

Post by mc3301 »

zahlman wrote: post #94
mc3301 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fellows devs at my company think I'm strange, but I always have a cheap coil-notebook. It has diagrams, notes, doodles, minutes, checklists, mostly not even in order. I try to remember to write the date at the top of each page. I just counted, 11 notebooks (b5, 60 pages) in two years, so just about a new notebook every 2 months. Funny thing is, coworkers will now ask to use my pen and paper to flesh-out something tog…

> even an ipad with a whiteboard app aren't good replacements for me. Curious. My first thought would have been "... because the line is physically displaced from the pen, of course"; but that doesn't apply there.

I can't really explain it; it's simply a preference. It may not actually be optimal efficiency. But I like the pen and paper.

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#97

Post by irishcoffee »

mc3301 wrote: post #91
irishcoffee wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep a rubber duck on my desk and have for at least 10 years, because of this. Great conversation starter.

Harvard's cs50 had a "Rubber Duck debugger" which was an LLM trained on all their educational content with specific guardrails in place to not give any answers. It would chat back with you planting little ideas to help push your understanding just a little bit. I loved it so much, because I was learning programming completely by myself usually after midnight while taking care of a new-born. I had nobody to pair-progr…

That sounds horrible, honestly.

Re: Why thinking out loud with someone beats thinking alone

#100

Post by theendisney »

mc3301 wrote: post #90
jackyinger wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I draw a lot to figure out engineering details. I used to make beautiful drawings in diagramming software (draw.io and the lil). But man, it took a lot of time. Now I scribble on printer paper unless it’s something I plan to share.

Fellows devs at my company think I'm strange, but I always have a cheap coil-notebook. It has diagrams, notes, doodles, minutes, checklists, mostly not even in order. I try to remember to write the date at the top of each page. I just counted, 11 notebooks (b5, 60 pages) in two years, so just about a new notebook every 2 months. Funny thing is, coworkers will now ask to use my pen and paper to flesh-out something tog…

I didnt have one for a while and accumulated some kind of panic when it was needed.

You remind me of a joke that with good employees you need only one pen and they can all write.

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