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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#91

Post by jackdoe »

Aurornis wrote: post #84
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

> If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too. A more accurate framing would be that they’re going after personalized recommendation algorithms. It’s not obvious that offering a recommendation algorithm would mean that the site is no lo…

> Hacker News goes away, too.

so be it.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#92

Post by chinathrow »

nekusar wrote: post #85
criddell wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An an adult, do you also believe seat belt laws are a bad thing?

Yes, I do. Its just another way that cops can pull you over for bullshit charges and revenue enhancement. I remember in my state, it was initially only a citation that couldnt be pulled over on. Then they flipped that and started pulling over for it. Why? Pure fucking money grab. Me not wearing a seatbelt means I risk getting splattered. Not you, or anyone else.

Is this satire?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#93

Post by indymike »

thiago_fm wrote: post #9

Why should only kids be protected from addiction? I have a hard time understanding this. We have plenty of adults with terrible social media addiction that is destroying their lives, and nothing being done about it.

This is the best question of all. Why are we allowing this?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#94

Post by HPsquared »

alkonaut wrote: post #69
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

In the case of Instagram: You show the videos from the people you follow on instagram, then no more short videos at all. Possibly a search box. If you search on youtube then it can rank any way it wants, just not use e.g. anything from the viewing history. No "related videos" column. That's what YouTube used to be. But YouTube (unlike TikTok) worked well before it had rabbit holes. For TikTok the situation is worse.…

There is no going back to the 2010 internet unless you confiscate everyone's phones.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#95

Post by nirui »

You know, yeah, you can crack down "addictive design", but then what?

If you don't provide better alternative, the "kids" (and please, stop using "kids" as excuse because everybody can see through it now) will just stick on these platforms because, believe or not, these platforms are much MUCH safer than the alternatives.

How about, let's see the real problem here: 24% of EU children at poverty risk or social exclusion (2024), see https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/d.... That's not just a statistic about children, it's also about their parents.

Do you know that if you go outside, then there's this huge risk of having to PAY for stuff you don't actually need to live? Like transportation to go to place that don't bring you wealth, like drink that you drink even you're not that thirsty, like movie tickets just so it will not be too awkward after all the dialogue options are exhausted? Does these politicians just somehow forgot all of these costs money, in this economy that they helped to create?

And that is not to mention the REAL risk, such as drugs the bad ones, rude or crazy drivers, unpleasant adults who's only life purpose is to earn enough money to keep them going a little bit longer, just to name a few.

..... ORRRR, you can just stay in your conformable home, sit on your soft and warm sofa/couch, and swipe your life away on TikTok or Instagram for free, safely.

You see the problem here?

I'm really sick and tired of these politicians putting up this act pretending to "love children", when in the reality what they do is putting up easy patches to hide the real problem, which is poverty and inequality, that's the real problem.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#96

Post by hug »

noprocrasted wrote: post #73
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

> what is the first video you show them Whatever is latest posted across their followings/subscriptions?

That’s also an algorithm. An unsophisticated one, but an algorithm nonetheless.

You can (and should) argue that such a simple algorithm doesn’t “count”, but fundamentally the exact wording of the grandparent post never works, legislatively.

Lawyers will lawyer.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#97

Post by SecretDreams »

wyre wrote: post #66
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

These are multi-billion dollar companies. Its okay if they have some hard problems to solve.

Won't anyone think of the multibillion dollar technolords? They are people too!

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#98

Post by baggachipz »

stingraycharles wrote: post #25
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

Ok so then the "algorithm" must be made available to authorities (or even better, the public at large) and be approved or rejected based on a court or a law. Obviously an algorithm based on "engagement" or "narrative" should be rejected with prejudice every time.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#99

Post by another-dave »

Aurornis wrote: post #84
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

> If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too. A more accurate framing would be that they’re going after personalized recommendation algorithms. It’s not obvious that offering a recommendation algorithm would mean that the site is no lo…

Goes away, or is liable for the content promoted to the frontpage under the OP's take?

But I'd agree, that it's personalisation rather than just curation that's the issue.

I think even requiring sites to have a "bring your own algo" version (and where ads are targetted to the algorithm, rather than the person) would cure a lot of ills.

As is, even with something like Spotify where you _are_ paying there's no easy way to "reset" your profile to neutral recommendations

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#100

Post by Aurornis »

alkonaut wrote: post #69
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

In the case of Instagram: You show the videos from the people you follow on instagram, then no more short videos at all. Possibly a search box. If you search on youtube then it can rank any way it wants, just not use e.g. anything from the viewing history. No "related videos" column. That's what YouTube used to be. But YouTube (unlike TikTok) worked well before it had rabbit holes. For TikTok the situation is worse.…

I think it would be great if all of these apps had an option to function like you propose: Your feed is a simple view of people you’ve chosen to follow. The end.

Then all of the people who have trouble with self-control on infinite feeds can enable this mode, and everyone who wants the recommendation algorithm can leave it on.

This is the optimal outcome that actually serves everyone’s personal goals for using these platforms. If we get into a conversation where some are demanding we don’t allow anyone to use a recommendation algorithm because they feel the need to control what other people see, that’s a different conversation. That conversation usually reveals other motives, like when people defend the algorithm sites they view (Hacker News, Reddit, whatever) but targets sites they don’t like TikTok.

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