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Self-hosting is being enshittified

troubled.engineer

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Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#91

Post by Saris »

apexalpha wrote: post #84
notarget137 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Backing up entire VMs with all the configuration in case an update breaks something or just bricks your server is a smart idea aswell as running stuff in containers. Also, 4GB per VM? Besides sometimes you need to run software that is not avaliable on linux.

If you backup the entire VM you are just backing up the Linux kernel itself and all the (GNU) tools with it. Seems like a waste to me. Backup your docker config and your data, that's what you actually need. The rest is just available online if you ever need it. >Besides sometimes you need to run software that is not available on linux. Really, like what?

Good backup software deduplicates on storage. Proxmox backup server for example.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#92

Post by Saris »

apexalpha wrote: post #71
crapple8430 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A powerful enough machine (usually limited by RAM, not CPU) will let you run a hypervisor OS like Proxmox which helps a lot with making things secure and flexible. You might also want to have RAID, ECC memory. It quickly starts to make sense to build a proper home server rather than cobbling together a bunch of low end hardware. The tipping point is probably when you want more than 1-2 hard drives worth of storage.

If you run everything on Linux you don't need VMs. What are you putting in the VM, another Linux kernel? Why? Yeah then you need to take into account between 4GB and ~ 8GB of extra ram per VM . I don't have RAID though I do backup to my NAS at my parents'. But honestly a NVMe drive is basically like a CPU: it's either dead on arrival or it will just run forever.

The average Linux VM I run is around 50-100MB of RAM usage. Not actually that much more than an LXC container.

There are some use cases for a VM over a container, sometimes you want better isolation (my public facing webserver runs in one), or a different OS for some reason (I run an OSX VM because its the only way to test a site in Safari).

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#93

Post by reactordev »

goku12 wrote: post #58
reactordev wrote: post #19

If you’re self-hosting, do you need 128GB of ram? I suspect you don’t. I suspect a couple of beelinks could run your whole business (minus the GPU needs).

What I understood is that the author is hoarding them for the future - not because there is any need for it right now. You could argue that it's too much RAM even at end of server's useful lifetime. But who knows? What if he end up running a few dozen services on it at that time? Honestly, the problem that they're preparing for, isn't any of our fault. This is inflicted upon the world by some very twisted business mo…

When we were space constrained, we built smaller. When we were block constrained, we build ssd’s. When we were graphics constrained, we built gpu’s. Now that we’re memory constrained, we’ll see some advancements in this area as well. 1TB ram chips are right around the corner.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#94

Post by reactordev »

ryukoposting wrote: post #54
reactordev wrote: post #19

If you’re self-hosting, do you need 128GB of ram? I suspect you don’t. I suspect a couple of beelinks could run your whole business (minus the GPU needs).

I've been running syncthing, HA, Samba, jellyfin, and some home made stuff on a Celeron NUC with 8GB. Works fine.

With probably 7GB of headroom

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#95

Post by reactordev »

fernie wrote: post #37
boltzmann-brain wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect you don’t ...today. If you're self-hosting, do you need 640K of ram?

And you can upgrade in future to match your actual needs instead of wasting money trying to front load costs for no benefit. You can buy a “lightly used” Dell Optiplex with 8gb RAM for like $40 which will cover all your self hosting needs today .

Yup, and if you need something powerful by today’s standards you can grab a mini pc like this (1) one. Install arch or whatever, and go. Install k8s. Run a cluster of 16 nodes on this one little machine.

(1) https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-gti12-ultra-i9-129...

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#96

Post by goku12 »

reactordev wrote: post #93
goku12 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I understood is that the author is hoarding them for the future - not because there is any need for it right now. You could argue that it's too much RAM even at end of server's useful lifetime. But who knows? What if he end up running a few dozen services on it at that time? Honestly, the problem that they're preparing for, isn't any of our fault. This is inflicted upon the world by some very twisted business mo…

When we were space constrained, we built smaller. When we were block constrained, we build ssd’s. When we were graphics constrained, we built gpu’s. Now that we’re memory constrained, we’ll see some advancements in this area as well. 1TB ram chips are right around the corner.

The problem is the economic incentive. In all the prior cases you mentioned, their commercial interests aligned with our own - at least in part. This time however, I'm worried that they aren't concerned about burning down the world economy, at least in part, since their bottom line won't suffer for it.

For example, Micron didn't think about any alternatives for the consumer retail market. They just dumped it entirely.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#97

Post by apexalpha »

Saris wrote: post #92
apexalpha wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you run everything on Linux you don't need VMs. What are you putting in the VM, another Linux kernel? Why? Yeah then you need to take into account between 4GB and ~ 8GB of extra ram per VM . I don't have RAID though I do backup to my NAS at my parents'. But honestly a NVMe drive is basically like a CPU: it's either dead on arrival or it will just run forever.

The average Linux VM I run is around 50-100MB of RAM usage. Not actually that much more than an LXC container. There are some use cases for a VM over a container, sometimes you want better isolation (my public facing webserver runs in one), or a different OS for some reason (I run an OSX VM because its the only way to test a site in Safari).

Ok that is a very low usage. Alpine or so?

But yeah I just restrict my webserver in an unprivileged container. Though my site is static and accepts no input whatsoever.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#98

Post by Saris »

apexalpha wrote: post #97
Saris wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average Linux VM I run is around 50-100MB of RAM usage. Not actually that much more than an LXC container. There are some use cases for a VM over a container, sometimes you want better isolation (my public facing webserver runs in one), or a different OS for some reason (I run an OSX VM because its the only way to test a site in Safari).

Ok that is a very low usage. Alpine or so? But yeah I just restrict my webserver in an unprivileged container. Though my site is static and accepts no input whatsoever.

Just a basic Debian install.

Containers also have some advantages for device passthrough, I have my Intel iGPU added into one for Immich and Frigate, can't do that with a VM unless you detach the whole GPU from the system.

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#99

Post by zzyzxd »

apexalpha wrote: post #59

This blog seems to be from "that side" of the self-hosting world: the homelabbers. If you ask these people you need to buy expensive hardware and build your own datacenter at home. I have been hosting all my services on a single Intel Nuc from 10 years ago and a RPI5 as backup for critical services like DNS. That's it. You'll truly be amazed at how much stuff you can actually run on very little hardware if you only h…

I used to be on the side of single NUC, but when my self hosted services became important enough, I realized I need to take security and reliability seriously, you know, all the SysAdmin/SRE stuff, and that's when I started moving to "that side".

Re: Self-hosting is being enshittified

#100

Post by reactordev »

goku12 wrote: post #96
reactordev wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we were space constrained, we built smaller. When we were block constrained, we build ssd’s. When we were graphics constrained, we built gpu’s. Now that we’re memory constrained, we’ll see some advancements in this area as well. 1TB ram chips are right around the corner.

The problem is the economic incentive. In all the prior cases you mentioned, their commercial interests aligned with our own - at least in part. This time however, I'm worried that they aren't concerned about burning down the world economy, at least in part, since their bottom line won't suffer for it. For example, Micron didn't think about any alternatives for the consumer retail market. They just dumped it entirely…

If Ford stopped making cars…

You fail to grasp that if Micron decides the consumer market isn’t for them, others will gladly fill that void.

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