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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#91

Post by outime »

Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

>Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists

Maybe it's time to start considering the current individuals in power as extremists? Just because their speech is more 'peaceful' doesn't mean their actions aren't extremist in nature.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#92

Post by barrenko »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #48
delusional wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU skepticism is at a 15 year low, and general approval hasnt been higher since 2007. Europeans in general like or is indifferent towards the EU.

> EU skepticism is at a 15 year low, and general approval hasnt been higher since 2007. My observations are different.

If public opinion and vote was honored there never would have been an EU, just ask the French.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#93

Post by graemep »

cianmm wrote: post #62
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU skepticism is at a 15 year low, and general approval hasnt been higher since 2007. My observations are different.

Here’s some data. Skepticism is pretty low and approval is pretty high https://www.statista.com/statistics/1360333/euroscepticism-e...

Do those numbers include the UK when it was in the EU? Obviously removing a large pool of sceptics would shift the numbers.

The "positive" number has recovered from a low in the wake of the Eurozone crisis but is still fallen significantly from the pre-crisis level of around 50%.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown by country - The EU's own report suggests very big variations between countries: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/905...

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#95

Post by Kenji »

Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

[dead]

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#96

Post by bluecalm »

gadders wrote: post #8
Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want."

Don't forget "if we let people vote by some misfortune and their vote is opposite of what we wanted we will overrule it anyway".

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#97

Post by Xelbair »

Quarrel wrote: post #16
Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

I'm not a fan, but in what was is this, or any other topic, undemocratic to have debates and votes on? The sanctions politicians should face for bringing up unpopular topics should be that they don't get voted for. > These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the most powerful punishments available. Yes. Vote them out. Keep raising it.

How do i vote out representatives not from my country? In this case my country is vehemently opposed to this.

How do i vote out representatives if all of them support the measure despite it being unpopular in my country, no matter the faction? That was the case with centralized copyright checking.

EU parliament, and especially EC, are so far removed from any form of accountability, that frankly votes are almost irrelevant - same factions form no matter who's there, and EC runs on rotation.

Lobbying takes prime spot over votes.

EU is sitting in the middle ground between federation and trade union... and we get downsides of both systems.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#98

Post by varispeed »

amelius wrote: post #77
varispeed wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling it “also about catching criminals” is a framing trick. Sure, if you surveil 450 million people you’ll find some criminals - that’s statistically inevitable. But you’ll also drag far more innocents into suspicion. Even under generous assumptions - 0.01% offender prevalence, 90% detection accuracy, and just 1% false positives - you’d correctly flag ~40,500 offenders while generating ~4.5 million false alarms. F…

Yeah but that wasn't my point. My point is that "this isn't about catching criminals" is the wrong wording. You don't start a debate by twisting the words of the other party. No matter how right you are. Otherwise you will be seen as a pariah.

But this isn't about catching criminals.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#99

Post by Xelbair »

Arnt wrote: post #81
LikesPwsh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This topic is undemocratic because it's part of the constant attempts to rephrase and resubmit the same unpopular proposal. It's p-hacking democracy. If a proposal has 5% chance of passing just resubmit it twenty times under different names with minor variations. It wastes time that lawmakers could spend on proposals that the public actually want.

It hasn't been resubmitted yet, has it? The proponents keep it alive without putting it to an actual vote, AIUI. They try to wait until they think they have a majority, and keep their proposal ready for a vote on short order before their majority dissipates. Which is many things, I' might call it cynical, but it doesn't seem undemocratic.

This is at least 3rd time similar measure has been tried in EU parliament, form my memory.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#100

Post by nickslaughter02 »

yuumei wrote: post #87
nickslaughter02 wrote: post #68

A few comments about the state of security and privacy in the UK so let me reply with a top level comment instead: People forget that the UK has ChatControl. It was made into law as part of the Online Safety Act 2023. It has not been enforced so far because it's not "technically feasible to do so" and because companies threatened to leave the UK with their services. You can be 100% certain it will suddenly become fea…

Worth noting that with RIPA (2000, activated in 2007) UK has enforced key disclosure. It is illegal to fail to disclose a password for any data for any reason (including random data). I would say the UK has worse privacy than any other country on earth. I'm really hoping for plausible deniability to become more common to help protect against the government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_King…

More countries will follow after they ratify Russia's "United Nations Convention against Cybercrime" which has key disclosure explicitly stated in the text.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_agai...

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