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The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

theguardian.com

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Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#91

Post by nradov »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #66
agent531c wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a comment on here a while back that highlighted EoL care as the main way The Machine has to sap resources between generations, and it makes a lot more sense when looked at through that lens. I don't see it going away any time soon since its a guaranteed process for every person that moves wealth away from the lower/middle classes into the industry at a grand scale.

How much of that is The Machine, and how much of that is kids & grandkids not wanting grandma to pass away? For what it's worth, when my grandma was in the hospital with congestive heart failure, the surgeon was very clear with her and with us that "do nothing, and die" was very much an option, and a choice that she and she alone could make.

Often the family dynamic is that the next-of-kin who have the power to make end-of-life decisions hesitate to cut off care even when they know it is pointless or cruel because they're afraid of being criticized by other family members later. Sometimes this extends to vicious backbiting and cutting off contact. I've seen these issues break extended families apart. It takes a strong and confident person to take responsibility in this situation, and then accept the consequences.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#92

Post by nradov »

trhway wrote: post #78
asdfj999 wrote: post #54

If I could change one thing about healthcare, it would be how we handle end of life care. Sadly, hospitals are full of 80-90+ year old people who cannot walk or talk for years, advanced dementia plus many other serious comorbidities, with severe malnutrition and recurrent aspiration pneumonia, with large non-healing sacral ulcers, who shit and piss themselves, and the family continues to insist we "do everything" to…

>Sadly, hospitals are full of 80-90+ year old people who cannot ... and the family continues to insist we "do everything" to help this person. so what? It is on their dime, not yours. If i'm a 90 years old and wanna drag my existence out it is my choice as long as i'm paying for it, directly or through insurance (and Medicare is an insurance too btw) It is easy to suggest to terminate lives earlier when it isn't your…

Medicare is not insurance. The word "insurance" has a specific meaning, and the traditional Medicare fee-for-service program doesn't meet that definition. (There are a variety of other payers or health plans in the US healthcare system which fill a similar role to insurance but are not actually insurance.)

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#93

Post by nradov »

WalterBright wrote: post #44
thmsths wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not surprised. Healthcare costs have been rising faster than inflation for several years. It's a difficult sell to increase budgets, so we have to resort to these "invisible" cost cutting measures to try and stay afloat.

Healthcare costs have risen faster than inflation since the 1960s, when the government got involved with providing "free" healthcare. Before then, costs tracked inflation. Health care costs that are not provided "free" by the government have fallen, such as lasik eye surgery.

You seem to have the causality backwards. Prior to the 1960s, the healthcare system couldn't really do much. Most of the drugs, devices, and procedures were relatively cheap. After that the capabilities increased tremendously as did costs, and then government had to get involved to control costs and ensure patient access. (Although many of those government interventions ultimately had the opposite effect.)

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#94

Post by nradov »

an0malous wrote: post #76
nsksl wrote: post #69

Nurses in Spain make 2500-3000 euro a month, in a country where the most common salary is 1250 euro. Are they overworked? Well then they can take a pay cut so we can hire more of them.

Same for doctors, we constrain the number of new doctors trained every year to keep their salaries high. Just like constraining the housing supply to keep housing prices high, greed has corrupted these systems from getting better and now we’re just asking people to die instead.

Which country are you talking about, and who is "we"? In the USA, Congress constrains the number of new doctors trained every year not to keep salaries high but rather to limit Medicare expenses. If Medicare beneficiaries can't get an appointment due to a doctor shortage then no claim will be submitted to CMS. Most of the funding for residency programs comes from Medicare, and every year there are medical students who graduate with the MD but are unable to practice medicine because they don't get matched to a residency program.

At one point the AMA did lobby Congress to limit the number of doctors but they reversed their position on that issue long ago.

https://savegme.org/

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#95

Post by nradov »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #48
evoloution wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you hoping to be treated by nurses who are worse academically than the ones we have now? Or are you hoping that "others" will be treated by them while increased supply depresses wages for the good ones that you think will treat you? Also being a nurse is a very hard job, most people wouldn't last a year as an ER nurse in the US.

We make them take classes like organic chemistry where they have to memorize the reaction of various metal catalysts. Calculus. Physics. These are all two semester classes that are considered hard in undergrad. And yet the nurse will never ever use what they learn in these classes outside them. They aren’t the ones synthesizing the drugs.

That's misinformation. Most BSN programs don't include those course requirements.

https://www.sjsu.edu/nursing/programs/bsn.php

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#96

Post by nradov »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #65
evoloution wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you hoping to be treated by nurses who are worse academically than the ones we have now? Or are you hoping that "others" will be treated by them while increased supply depresses wages for the good ones that you think will treat you? Also being a nurse is a very hard job, most people wouldn't last a year as an ER nurse in the US.

how much worse were nurses when it was a 2 years occupational program or associates degree?

Huh? There have been multiple levels of nursing for many decades, probably longer than you've been alive. At the lowest level a CNA or LPN doesn't even need an Associate's Degree.

https://www.usa.edu/blog/levels-of-nursing-explained/

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#97

Post by pavel_lishin »

nradov wrote: post #91
pavel_lishin wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of that is The Machine, and how much of that is kids & grandkids not wanting grandma to pass away? For what it's worth, when my grandma was in the hospital with congestive heart failure, the surgeon was very clear with her and with us that "do nothing, and die" was very much an option, and a choice that she and she alone could make.

Often the family dynamic is that the next-of-kin who have the power to make end-of-life decisions hesitate to cut off care even when they know it is pointless or cruel because they're afraid of being criticized by other family members later. Sometimes this extends to vicious backbiting and cutting off contact. I've seen these issues break extended families apart. It takes a strong and confident person to take respons…

That's true. Grandma initially wanted to get no treatment, and boy did we hear about it - the rest of her family convinced her to go ahead and undergo treatment.

I think this was the correct choice, but I have no idea.

On the one hand, she's feeling much better now, and I'm glad she's around, because I like spending time with her.

On the other hand, the recovery was pretty rough, though thankfully she doesn't really remember the truly bad parts. And she's 90 years old, and has repeatedly stated that she doesn't particularly want to go on living.

On the gripping hand, the doctor's description of letting yourself die of congestive heart failure sounded rather unpleasant, and hopefully instead of undergoing that, she'll pass away in her sleep.

On the hands that I'm running out of, maybe an even worse fate awaits.

Can't see the future. :/

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#98

Post by ajmurmann »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #18
ajmurmann wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will continue to happen as long as automation in health care is slower than in other sectors. It's due to Baumol's Cost Disease: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect The same is true for other sectors that struggle with automation like education.

So after every industry is fully automated and everyone has lost all their jobs, do we all just hold hands and walk into the sea together or...?

Not sure why we would walk into the sea because work doesn't need doing anymore. If you are worried about needing work to put food on the table, I think our best solution is to start with a small UBI that we try to increase as automation increases.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#99

Post by xnyan »

FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #30
FigurativeVoid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have thought that we should make entering the medical professions much easier. In order to become a nurse, you usually need a 4 year degree. This has two issues: 1. This is way to much time in the classroom. Much of that coursework simply isn't necessary. 2. You have people that would be good nurses piking other programs because they can't get passing marks in classes that are irrelevant to day to day nursing. Bind…

At least in the US, nursing does not require a 4 year degree. You can become an RN with an associates degree. A 2 year nursing degree has one of the highest returns on investment of any training program (especially if you go to community college). Ivy Tech CC in Indiana and WGU both have nursing programs with great returns. Keep in mind, nursing is not an easy path and has a super high burnout rate. It's a tough and…

A lot of people are surprised to learn the the average wage for both plumbers and electricians is ~30 bucks an hour, then that’s in exchange for body breaking work. A small subset earn more, but it’s not the norm.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#100

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

constantcrying wrote: post #4

Much of the west is getting older and getting sicker. How unsurprising. What even is the solution? Expand the already massive healthcare sector further? Where does the money for that come from?

one answer is raising retirement ages.
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