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The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

the.taoofmac.com

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Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#91
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real question is why companies are still not able to compete even with these lower costs. Other inefficiencies and being in the wrong markets?

That's the takehome pay - there are pretty high taxes, so the total that the company is paying might be much higher, and the labor market is very rigid: at least in Italy, it's very difficult to fire someone once they have obtained a 'permanent position'. Still though, I think there are opportunities to be had; things like what Fabrizio Capobianco did with Funambol. I can only find stories in Italian that focus more…

Well, both taxes and salaries are higher in Northern Europe and our companies are still competitive so that is not the reason why the Spanish IT companies are not competitive.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#92

98% of Portuguese IT industry are consultancy and solution development. We have very few product and services development. The game industry is almost zero, applications made here are very rare and services are just copycats. We have a lot of public institutions IT back office projects executed by the same big companies. For a programmer who loves programming: what is the motivation in doing back-offices? Well there…

So why not open up shop yourself? There will be even a 'better' time when the EU tanks, but now is a great time to get great people and make new companies. You don't like the way it is now, so, why not start something to do cool stuff. Make original games and apps? Do 50% client jobs (but only in your niche), do 50% your own. Few friends, small office and have fun.

I couldn't agree more. And some of us are doing that. Changing the career paths in order to build something different and interesting.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#93

A personal anecdote. I know a pretty good PHP developer from Portugal who moved to Dnipropetrovsk, Ukraine recently. He started dating a girl from there some time before and visited the country several times. So, when they decided to move in together he preferred to move to Ukraine himself since he could find a much better pay here. For a record, Dnipropetrovsk is not a capital but still a fairy large IT center (one…

Now you sir have blown my mind! I've been to Kiev and the Crimea in the summer... very lovely country, with even more lovely girls, not to mention great food/beer. If it wasn't for the dreadful winter I'd call it paradise lol

And apparently ML/AI skills are in high demand everywhere.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes Davidw, but I can tell you something about quality of life... it doesn't exists if you don't have money :) Salaries in Spain for IT are so absurd: 600~1500 EUR/month in the south. If you are in the 1500EUR/month salary you are a lucky bastard! Spain is going to change in a really bad way in the next one or two decades and no one wants to be there when they can stay at 5 hours of flight in UK (including bus/train…

The real question is why companies are still not able to compete even with these lower costs. Other inefficiencies and being in the wrong markets?

In a word: yes.

I'm subcontracted, so even if my salary is half what it would be in UK, Germany, the cost for the company I work in is not so different. Their fault anyway, why don't they contract me directly?

Add to that that rotation is wild. They hire the cheapest people: those who are unemployed and would take any offer. As soon as you're employed, it's orders of magnitude easier to get a job, so hasta luego, Lucas!

Companies also have a huge burden treating with other companies or government that work terribly and terribly slow, pay when they will and often simply don't answer the phone.

There is little competitive spirit. Virtually all the big companies are there because some concession or "too big to fail" (utilities, banks) so their way to raise profit is to exploit customers and employees.

Beware! There are exceptions to all of these traits! There are good innovative companies, competitive people and internationally successful ventures. But not enough to sustain a disgruntled IT workforce that are treated as spoiled clerks.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#95
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real question is why companies are still not able to compete even with these lower costs. Other inefficiencies and being in the wrong markets?

That's the takehome pay - there are pretty high taxes, so the total that the company is paying might be much higher, and the labor market is very rigid: at least in Italy, it's very difficult to fire someone once they have obtained a 'permanent position'. Still though, I think there are opportunities to be had; things like what Fabrizio Capobianco did with Funambol. I can only find stories in Italian that focus more…

Severance pay has been cut in half in Spain some months ago.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the fact that everyone 'hates Endesa'. That wouldn't fly in NL, why does it fly in ES?

Curiously my answer (I don't know if it's THE answer) is that Spanish people do not like conflict. We don't have class actions as in other countries and people are not used to claim for their rights against big companies. I think we still need a bit of this crazy david-vs-goliath mindset I've seen in other countries where people fight big injustices to the death. The Spaniard is too preoccupied about what the other w…

That's funny, I've always felt that we Portuguese are more eager to avoid conflicts than the Spaniards, who always seem to be more assertive and self-confident than us.

This even seems (to me) to be mirrored in your politics, where the left-right divide is way more polarised than in Portugal

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you live in southern EU you have, as an example, Worten and Mediamarkt => they both do electronic 'stuff', games, tvs, washers, etc. They are quite comparable, except Worten is Portugese and Mediamarkt is German. And that difference is a huge gap. The staff is Worten, in all branches I have been, and, when I had enough, my friends have been, is downright shit. We are talking girls with braces talking to their…

I understand now. So, that would be more of a management thing than a people thing, if the workers of Mediamarkt are still Spaniards...

Oh it's definitely management. There is a great 'beach club' here ran by a guy I know. The first time I met him, he reminded me of a friend from NL. Unlike other 'clubs/bars/etc', this place is insanely good. He does what the others don't do; you get almost american service; everyone is nice, if there is something wrong they'll replace it without even blinking (I know a Thai restaurant on the coast; if you complain about the food, they'll throw you out and you can never return) and they are fast. If they don't deliver in time , your drink is free etc. With standard Spanish waiters, however they are actually trained. What both the Dutch friend and this guy do is the following; in their first place they work day+night to make it work, but after that, the process is 'simple' (it's not but he, you don't become a miljonair that easy); you take the people from the previous place and have them train the new people in that place. Then you take the people you KNOW who are good to the new place and the new people working the 'old place' (it's already a hit so you can have a few mistakes). He stays on top (there EVERY day it's open) for 1 year and then he leaves to open the next one. The staff in all his places is great and he does (surprise surprise) better than all others in this crisis. Places left and right of him are closing and he thrives. It's one of the great examples that it's a) not the people b) tourists want nice, pampering waiters.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#98
post #8

We just opened up in PT http://appsalad.com/appdesign/nieuw-appsalad-portugal-is-een... (Dutch) and we'll be opening a second office in Faro soon. Most devs want to stay in their country and we don't mind giving them that opportunity. I never understood why people would leave what they love though; be that India or Portugal or whatever; there is plenty to do and live for if you are resourceful and the Portugese I met…

Coming from Greece and currently working in Australia, I see what you mean. Nevertheless, even if there is opportunity for creation there is no such opportunity for survival. When you are in a market with shallow liquidity, the best intentions will not get you far. The near-shoring of course (absorbing liquidity from outside your country) is a potential solution, an attractive one too, but there are significant obstacles still. E.g. the fact that Northerners have attributed all woes to the mentality of Southerners is such an obstacle.

Therefore, you may find opportunities as a Dutch with Portuguese or Spanish employees but I would not expect the same access to market for a purely Greek, Spanish or Portuguese entrepreneur. I assure you that as a Greek I hear derogatory comments even by people who can see and witness the quality of my work. The best case scenario is when they consider me an exception amongst the Greeks. I am not one.

Accusing those who leave that they do it selfishly is not very nice. I can assume you selfishly want the best developers (those who can find work abroad) work for the 500 euros or whatever you offer. It is a crisis and the best anyone can make of it is to survive and in the process work to get the necessary experiences to go back when the conditions are better.

It is a crisis, and the 200-300 euro slavery northerners envision for us is not the solution. It is the problem. If as the "Dean" told you, people avoided risk, they would not risk moving either. The grass is not greener. The money is more. After all, EU is supposedly encouraging mobility. It is a free market, or is it not? Are only companies supposed to move?

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#99

I'm one of those about to graduate students from a technical university in Lisbon, and for me, there is no doubt anymore, I'll start to work outside of Portugal. When you look at it from one side, South European countries have everything: they have the food, the weather, good universities, kind and welcoming people (not to say that other countries don't), talent. They have the potential to be the best countries to li…

Maybe the fact European Southern Countries have food, the weather, good universities, and welcoming people makes people not to have to elaborate as much in order to enjoy themselves and live another day. That's one of the factors which contribute for them to be more laid back and invest less in work and organization, leading to competitive disadvantage over the years in other fields.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#100
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NiNi is a pejorative word used to refer to people that "Ni estudia Ni trabaja" (do not study, do not work). I hope this word just stops being used. As a young person from Spain that have studied and is working (and have been since I was 18), that term used in spanish people is terribly insulting.

You seem to be an angry young person :) But you are working and you have studied; so why do you find this insulting? If you are not working and not studying, what are you doing? Why is it not ok to call the problem by it's name? Again, I don't know about the north, but here there are TONS of jobs, just no one takes them, and this NiNi seems to be an apt description of that. Sure, if you actually cannot find a job and…

I guess he finds insulting that the term is thrown to every young people "generation nini" as if being of a certain age is synonim of being a slacker.

There are a number of other subtle generalization in your comments to this story that I find moderately annoying, even if (or maybe because) some of your points are true.

I won't go into them in detail, it would be a very long conversation. Just let me say that you're seeing it from an entrepreneur POV, that I bet started your business in your country and then "exported" it to mine and others.

I have zero incentives to waste time swimming crosscurrent. If I find a decent job abroad, I couldn't care less about the country going where it's going anyway.

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