Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book • Hacker News Board

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#91

Post by lutusp » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 1:00 AM UTC

jleader wrote: post #90

lutusp wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Money-back guarantees virtually invariably raise sales in A/B tests. The original poster didn't make a money-back guarantee, as in "If you aren't happy with my book, I will refund." Instead he made a claim about increasing the number of clients, i.e. a performance claim ("I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates."). Here's the law on that issue: URL: http://nationalp…

You keep talking about "commercial speech" being different from "non-commercial speech", as if that explains your claim that "If you aren't happy with my book, I will refund." (claim A) is a safe thing to say, but "I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates." (claim B) isn't. But both claim A and claim B look like commercial speech to me! Both are promises to provide ref…

> But both claim A and claim B look like commercial speech to me!

One of them offer a refund without making any kind of claim, the other makes a claim about the contents of the book and about what outcome purchasers have a right to expect. They are treated differently under the law.

But I can see you are simply not going to get this, no matter how many cases I quote for you, how many legal decisions.

> How is claim B more dangerous than claim A?

One of the statements offer a refund without making any kind of claim about the book's effect. The other makes a claim about the book's effect.

Imagine you are a doctor, offering a miracle cure that is in the pages of a book. To one group you say, "If you're not happy with my book, I will give you your money back."

To the other you say, "My book provides a cure for cancer. If your cancer isn't cured, I will give you your money back."

The first pitch is protected under the First Amendment because it doesn't describe the book's contents or effect, and therefore it doesn't matter what the book says. The second doesn't have First Amendment protection, because it's commercial speech that makes a claim about the contents of the book. In the second case, the author makes the mistake of making a claim about the book and its contents in his promotion, outside the protection of the First Amendment.

How is that in any way complicated?

URL:

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-16/news/30523850...

Quote: "Trudeau insisted his First Amendment rights were being infringed, and began advertising books rather than diet supplements in new infomercials ... [but] the new ruling requires Trudeau to give back all the money he made from selling books during the infomercial ban."

The reason Trudeau lost his case, even though he was selling books, is because he didn't just sell the books, he described what the reader should expect from them in his pitches. It was on this basis that the court ruled against him.

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#92

Post by lutusp » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 1:21 AM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #89

lutusp wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, IANAL. Next, how can you not see that I'm comparing the OP's performance claim ("I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates") to a simple money-back guarantee -- "If you're not happy, I'll give you back your money." I have to say there is a world of difference between the two, and others have made the same point in this thread. > Please provide credible examples o…

The debate wasn't, isn't, has never been about whether "commercial speech is First Amendment speech." The debate is whether you have evidence to support your claims that it's a very risky and legally actionable idea to offer a refund if people don't see results . Assuming that the offer is truthful. You have not offered any. You've found one case where a person was sued for hawking a cancer cure and rapid weight loss…

> The debate wasn't, isn't, has never been about whether "commercial speech is First Amendment speech."

Yes, as a matter of fact, it is. The OP was making a mistake by making a performance claim about his book. By doing so, he abandoned the First Amendment protection of the book's contents.

If he had said "money back if you're not happy" but without referring to the book's contents, that could hardly get him in trouble. But by referring to the book's contents and anticipated effect, he opened himself up to people who might like to hold him accountable for the book's contents, something they cannot do if he doesn't refer to the book's contents.

Because of First Amendment protections, it's not possible to hold someone responsible for a book's contents, unless the person makes claims about the contents as part of his sales pitch. This is what got Kevin Trudeau in trouble, even though he was selling books (he believed he was protected, but for the reasons I have just given, he wasn't).

URL: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-16/news/30523850...

> You've found one case where a person was sued for hawking a cancer cure and rapid weight loss, but even so, the lawsuits were over flat out lies inherent in the product

No, the problem wasn't lies, the problem was the location of the lies. You can lie in a book, but you cannot lie in a sales pitch. Kevin Trudeau either didn't know this or didn't care.

Greg Mortenson wrote a book called "Three Cups of Tea," and raised millions for his charitable activities. Investigators then discovered that his book is a pack of lies, but because it's a book, he couldn't be sued (Mortenson never told the lies outside his book).

URL:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2012/0418/T...

Quote: "First Amendment expert and general counsel of the First Amendment Lawyers Association Wayne Giampietro calls those claims absurd, reports the AP.

“It’s his story. It purports to be his experiences. He can say it any way he wants to say. He has the right to publish anything he wants about himself,” Giampietro said. “The idea that you can be sued because perhaps they don’t like what you wrote, for whatever reason, is absurd.” "

My point? If it's between the covers of a book, it doesn't matter what you say, you're protected. If it's part of a sales pitch, someone can try to sue you, and not all plaintiffs are angels.

It is entirely about the difference between protected speech and commercial speech. In a book, you can say anything. In a pitch, you cannot. Very simple.

> No matter how often I ask for evidence for this assertion of yours, you manage to change the topic.

You're the one trying to change the topic. You just tried to claim this isn't about the difference between constitutionally protected and commercial speech. But that is the only issue.

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#93

Post by lutusp » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 7:37 AM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #88

lutusp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This implies that this is the way things are, now, or will be in the very near future, for the majority. And? It's a reasonable prediction based on current trends, and see below for more evidence. > And there's no proof that "in modern publishing, books are printed, one copy at a time." What? That's true -- it is how "modern publishing" is distinguished from old-style publishing. This is not to say that the majorit…

Who other than you considers ebooks "printed"?

Who other than you doesn't?

E-Book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-book

Quote: "An electronic book (variously, e-book, ebook, digital book, or even e-editions) is a book-length publication in digital form, consisting of text, images, or both, and produced on, published through, and readable on computers or other electronic devices.[1] Sometimes the equivalent of a conventional printed book, e-books can also be born digital. The Oxford Dictionary of English defines the e-book as "an electronic version of a printed book" ...

http://speakingvolumes.us/about-our-ebooks.asp

Quote "Sometimes the equivalent of a conventional printed book, eBooks can also be born digital ..."

No need to repeat ... hundreds of other sites make this meaning clear.

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#94

Post by ky3 » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 11:27 AM UTC

manmal wrote: post #77

ky3 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> knowing none of the future audience in person I'd seriously think about that 30x500 course if I were you. (Thibault is alum.) The biggest chunk of the course is devoted to making sure there's a "commitment to cash" BEFORE spending a dime. And that includes $$$ adwords.

For our product, we know that there is commitment to cash for this category of products, because there are other products in that area which do well as far as we know. What we don't know is whether people pay $X for exactly our product. We have pondered a lot over the free 30x500 course materials, but haven't got around to join the course. We did not spend much on Adwords ( So, yes, we thought we could validate the i…

You are right that perhaps the best ways to validate a product is to ask real people - like asking quite bluntly "Would you pay $30 per month for this product, with this certain USP?", or even "Would you pay me $100 upfront to build this product?".

That's not what I said. Ensuring commitment the way you mentioned doesn't quite work because of divergence between what people say and what people do. The latter is by far the more reliable, agreed?

The 30x500 course teaches advanced 360-degree market study where you learn what people actually do and what they so badly wished they were doing instead. (So yes, you'll learn how to read between the lines, among other things.) The results of that market study forms the most robust foundation to building a value offering that has buy-in baked-in.

p.s. The above is why you'd never hear about the need to "validate a product [idea]" among 3x5ers. The assumptions behind that expression are just wrong to begin with.