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Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

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Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#81

Post by lutusp »

patio11 wrote: post #71
lutusp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that you would mention the scientific method, then offer no evidence for your theory. I said what I did because I have seen it happen countless times in a long career that has included a lot of writing. I have the evidence. When someone makes a performance claim about the contents of a book, the book then becomes nearly irrelevant to the outcome, which hinges on the claim.

Money-back guarantees virtually invariably raise sales in A/B tests. I have never seen one decreases sales in a statistically significant fashion. I have never seen a guarantee meaningfully increase refund rates. (No customer of mine has refund rates worth mentioning. I will literally mail paper checks to people who bought my software five years ago and my refund rate is below ~2%.) If you have data to the contrary,…

> Money-back guarantees virtually invariably raise sales in A/B tests.

The original poster didn't make a money-back guarantee, as in "If you aren't happy with my book, I will refund." Instead he made a claim about increasing the number of clients, i.e. a performance claim ("I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates."). Here's the law on that issue:

URL: http://nationalparalegal.edu/conlawcrimproc_public/FreedomOf...

Quote: "Commercial speech holds a special place in First Amendment analysis. It is not an unprotected category of speech, nor is it afforded the same level of protection as non-commercial speech. In addition, there are sub-categories within commercial speech. Truthful commercial speech is afforded protection while false or deceptive commercial speech is not protected."

Here is another account that makes the same point:

URL: http://www.wisbar.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=News&Templ...

Quote: "In 2004, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) banned Kevin Trudeau from appearing in any infomercial promoting any product except publications, which are protected by the First Amendment, provided he did not misrepresent the content of the publication."

What these rulings mean is that the contents of a book are protected by the First Amendment, but promotional claims about the book are not.

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#82

Post by ahoyhere »

lutusp wrote: post #75
ahoyhere wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we all know what Print on Demand is, but that Wikipedia page doesn't list any proof for your assertion that it is "the coming thing." The only publishers it lists as offering POD are specialty POD publishers. That's hardly the sweeping industry change you described.

Your objection is that there is little evidence in the present for an assertion about the future -- the "coming thing". Knock yourself out.

You state things in the present tense:

"In modern publishing, there's no need -- books are printed, one copy at a time, when they are ordered… This change (electronic on-demand publishing) essentially wipes out the traditional publishing model."

This implies that this is the way things are, now, or will be in the very near future, for the majority. And there's no proof that "in modern publishing, books are printed, one copy at a time."

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#83

Post by ahoyhere »

lutusp wrote: post #74
ahoyhere wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. So where do your very strong assertions about the folly of money-back guarantees come from? Data? Experience? Do you have friends who've done it? I ask because I have lots of experience with it -- with 4 products offering total money-back guarantees -- and have insight into more than 10 friends' businesses with similar guarantees, and not a single one of us have had experience with refund abuse like you descri…

> So where do your very strong assertions about the folly of money-back guarantees come from? What assertion was that? I never said what you claim. I invite you to locate me decrying "the folly of money-back guarantees", anywhere. Try to read more carefully, before objecting to something no one said. > your statements are testable, and if you test them, you will find them false. Great -- you invent something I never…

I was simply summarizing. Here are your exact words:

"3. The problem is that the remaining 20% can take you at your word, demand a refund, explain that the book was lost in a fire, and succeed in wiping out your profit.

4. Worse, someone might say your claim moved your book from the category of an ordinary caveat-emptor purchase, to a guarantee of success, and demand consequential damages. Very bad, and you made it possible."

With your bulleted list you suggested that 20% of people would take advantage of a return policy (obliterating your presumed 20% profit margin), and on top of that, you might get sued.

If that's not "folly" by your definition, what is?

But because you cried foul, let me be explicit, step by step, with what you "actually" said:

#3. Where's your experience, evidence, or data to suggest that a 20% return rate is common or likely -- even with a results guarantee?

#4. Please provide credible examples of an (e)book author or video course producer being sued for damages above and beyond their refunded money-back guarantee, based on the premise of results promised not being delivered. (Other reasons for lawsuits wouldn't count.)

If you have evidence, I'd really love to see it, because it impacts my business.

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#84

Post by ahoyhere »

lutusp wrote: post #81
patio11 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money-back guarantees virtually invariably raise sales in A/B tests. I have never seen one decreases sales in a statistically significant fashion. I have never seen a guarantee meaningfully increase refund rates. (No customer of mine has refund rates worth mentioning. I will literally mail paper checks to people who bought my software five years ago and my refund rate is below ~2%.) If you have data to the contrary,…

> Money-back guarantees virtually invariably raise sales in A/B tests. The original poster didn't make a money-back guarantee, as in "If you aren't happy with my book, I will refund." Instead he made a claim about increasing the number of clients, i.e. a performance claim ("I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates."). Here's the law on that issue: URL: http://nationalp…

Are you seriously comparing a guy who says "Raise your professional service rates or your money back" to a guy peddling a snake oil cancer cure… or are you trolling to see what shakes out?

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#85

Post by lutusp »

ahoyhere wrote: post #84
lutusp wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Money-back guarantees virtually invariably raise sales in A/B tests. The original poster didn't make a money-back guarantee, as in "If you aren't happy with my book, I will refund." Instead he made a claim about increasing the number of clients, i.e. a performance claim ("I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates."). Here's the law on that issue: URL: http://nationalp…

Are you seriously comparing a guy who says "Raise your professional service rates or your money back" to a guy peddling a snake oil cancer cure… or are you trolling to see what shakes out?

The person's reason for speaking isn't the issue, the law is the only issue. My point is performance claims are actionable, but the contents of a book are not.

Do you really think people only initiate legal actions when someone has actually misrepresented something? That's naive. My point was the OP was taking an unnecessary risk, when he could simply have said "If you're not happy, I'll refund your money."

How complicated is that?

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#86

Post by lutusp »

ahoyhere wrote: post #83
lutusp wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So where do your very strong assertions about the folly of money-back guarantees come from? What assertion was that? I never said what you claim. I invite you to locate me decrying "the folly of money-back guarantees", anywhere. Try to read more carefully, before objecting to something no one said. > your statements are testable, and if you test them, you will find them false. Great -- you invent something I never…

I was simply summarizing. Here are your exact words: "3. The problem is that the remaining 20% can take you at your word, demand a refund, explain that the book was lost in a fire, and succeed in wiping out your profit. 4. Worse, someone might say your claim moved your book from the category of an ordinary caveat-emptor purchase, to a guarantee of success, and demand consequential damages. Very bad, and you made it p…

First, IANAL.

Next, how can you not see that I'm comparing the OP's performance claim ("I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates") to a simple money-back guarantee -- "If you're not happy, I'll give you back your money." I have to say there is a world of difference between the two, and others have made the same point in this thread.

> Please provide credible examples of an (e)book author or video course producer being sued for damages above and beyond their refunded money-back guarantee

Sure, no problem, since they practically grow on trees:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau

Quote: "Trudeau's activities have been the subject of both criminal and civil action. He was convicted of larceny and credit card fraud in the early 1990s, and in 1998 he was sued by U.S. Federal Trade Commission for making false or misleading claims in his infomercials promoting his book,'The Weight-Loss Cure "They" Don't Want You to Know About [emphasis added]. In 2004, he settled that action, by agreeing to pay a $500,000 fine and consenting to a lifetime ban on promoting products other than his books via infomercials [not mentioned in this article is that he was required to be truthful about the contents of his books]. [1] On Nov. 29, 2011, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a $37.6 million fine levied against him for violating that 2004 settlement [by lying about the contents of his books]. Additionally, on remand, the district court modified its final order, requiring that he post a $2 million bond before engaging in future infomercial advertising."

The above example is someone who made performance claims about his books and lost. Second example -- Greg Mortenson:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/19/greg-mortenson-sued...

Quote: "Regardless of whether claims are true that author Greg Mortenson fabricated portions of "Three Cups of Tea," neither he nor his publisher can be held liable because the First Amendment protects exaggerations or lies in memoirs, his publisher's attorney said Wednesday.

Penguin Group (USA) attorney Jonathan Herman and attorneys for Mortenson, co-author David Oliver Relin and Mortenson's charity, the Central Asia Institute, asked a federal judge to dismiss a lawsuit filed by four people who bought Mortenson's bestselling books."

Notice about this case, that the lawsuit was dismissed because the claims are all in a book, and while fund-raising, Mortenson never claimed anything beyond the book's content, thus he is protected by the First Amendment.

I could give dozens of examples like those above. The basic thread that runs through all of them is if it is between the covers of a book, in most cases you're safe. But if you make claims while promoting the book, unless they are absolutely bulletproof, someone might sue you. This doesn't mean you have to misbehave to get sued -- people sue on bogus grounds all the time. My point is it's best to avoid opening yourself up to a lawsuit by careless "commercial speech":

http://blj.ucdavis.edu/archives/vol-5-no-2/Commercial-Speech...

I won't try to summarize the complex law on this issue, except to say that commercial speech is not First Amendment speech.

> If that's not "folly" by your definition, what is?

I never even used the word "folly". What's my incentive to let you put words in my mouth?

And I hope this helps.

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#87

Post by lutusp »

ahoyhere wrote: post #82
lutusp wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your objection is that there is little evidence in the present for an assertion about the future -- the "coming thing". Knock yourself out.

You state things in the present tense: "In modern publishing, there's no need -- books are printed, one copy at a time, when they are ordered… This change (electronic on-demand publishing) essentially wipes out the traditional publishing model." This implies that this is the way things are, now, or will be in the very near future, for the majority. And there's no proof that "in modern publishing, books are printed, o…

> This implies that this is the way things are, now, or will be in the very near future, for the majority.

And? It's a reasonable prediction based on current trends, and see below for more evidence.

> And there's no proof that "in modern publishing, books are printed, one copy at a time."

What? That's true -- it is how "modern publishing" is distinguished from old-style publishing. This is not to say that the majority of books are published that way, but then I never made that claim.

In modern publishing, books are "printed" one copy at a time, when they are ordered. How is that remotely controversial? It covers on-demand publishing as well as e-books:

http://www.3dissue.com/ebook-market-share/

Quote: "Whilst the market has seen significant growth since 2008, the last 12 months in particular has shown a substantial rise. Between January 2011 to January 2012, sales in adult eBooks grew by 49.4%, while sales in children and young adult eBooks grew by 475.1%, according to the AAP. The good news for digital publishers is this trend is expected to continue."

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#88

Post by ahoyhere »

lutusp wrote: post #87
ahoyhere wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You state things in the present tense: "In modern publishing, there's no need -- books are printed, one copy at a time, when they are ordered… This change (electronic on-demand publishing) essentially wipes out the traditional publishing model." This implies that this is the way things are, now, or will be in the very near future, for the majority. And there's no proof that "in modern publishing, books are printed, o…

> This implies that this is the way things are, now, or will be in the very near future, for the majority. And? It's a reasonable prediction based on current trends, and see below for more evidence. > And there's no proof that "in modern publishing, books are printed, one copy at a time." What? That's true -- it is how "modern publishing" is distinguished from old-style publishing. This is not to say that the majorit…

Who other than you considers ebooks "printed"?

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#89

Post by ahoyhere »

lutusp wrote: post #86
ahoyhere wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was simply summarizing. Here are your exact words: "3. The problem is that the remaining 20% can take you at your word, demand a refund, explain that the book was lost in a fire, and succeed in wiping out your profit. 4. Worse, someone might say your claim moved your book from the category of an ordinary caveat-emptor purchase, to a guarantee of success, and demand consequential damages. Very bad, and you made it p…

First, IANAL. Next, how can you not see that I'm comparing the OP's performance claim ("I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates") to a simple money-back guarantee -- "If you're not happy, I'll give you back your money." I have to say there is a world of difference between the two, and others have made the same point in this thread. > Please provide credible examples o…

The debate wasn't, isn't, has never been about whether "commercial speech is First Amendment speech."

The debate is whether you have evidence to support your claims that it's a very risky and legally actionable idea to offer a refund if people don't see results. Assuming that the offer is truthful.

You have not offered any.

You've found one case where a person was sued for hawking a cancer cure and rapid weight loss, but even so, the lawsuits were over flat out lies inherent in the product and not any kind of results-or-money-back guarantee.

It's pretty amazing. No matter how often I ask for evidence for this assertion of yours, you manage to change the topic. I salute you. You would make an excellent press secretary.

Re: Selling $2,000+ Worth Of My Unfinished Book

#90

Post by jleader »

lutusp wrote: post #81
patio11 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money-back guarantees virtually invariably raise sales in A/B tests. I have never seen one decreases sales in a statistically significant fashion. I have never seen a guarantee meaningfully increase refund rates. (No customer of mine has refund rates worth mentioning. I will literally mail paper checks to people who bought my software five years ago and my refund rate is below ~2%.) If you have data to the contrary,…

> Money-back guarantees virtually invariably raise sales in A/B tests. The original poster didn't make a money-back guarantee, as in "If you aren't happy with my book, I will refund." Instead he made a claim about increasing the number of clients, i.e. a performance claim ("I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates."). Here's the law on that issue: URL: http://nationalp…

You keep talking about "commercial speech" being different from "non-commercial speech", as if that explains your claim that "If you aren't happy with my book, I will refund." (claim A) is a safe thing to say, but "I'm serious about refunding anyone who ends up not being able to raise their client rates." (claim B) isn't.

But both claim A and claim B look like commercial speech to me!

Both are promises to provide refunds under certain specified conditions. One, claim A, offers refunds under the broad and hard to dis-prove condition of "aren't happy with the book", while claim B offers refunds under a somewhat narrower and slightly easier to verify condition of "not able to raise rates". How is claim B more dangerous than claim A?

And comparing commercial speech vs. the contents of a book is irrelevant, since neither claim A nor claim B is contained within a book.

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