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How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

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Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#91

Post by heretohelp »

crusso wrote: post #89
heretohelp wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you resent people who want to work ridiculous hours? Hell no, if it makes them happy then that's fine, but if it starts producing burnout or interfering with their ability to perform, they need to ratchet it back and chill out. (Which has happened at my company, I've had to intervene and tell a coworker to relax and take some time off.) My coworkers have nothing to prove to me by spending all day and night at the…

> You appear to be constructing some sort of opposition to your preferred way of working when there is none. You said you wanted to kill yourself after reading an article about someone who talks about working hard and her management techniques at one of the most highly successful technology companies in the world that is listed as THE best company to work at in the country. Exactly how am I misunderstanding your own…

What are you trying to prove exactly? That I'm coffee-deprived and tired?

Google being a good place to work at really has nothing to do with demanding overtime of employees.

For that matter, Google isn't even guilty of what I'm talking about.

Given those two statements, everything you've just said is null.

What an immense waste of time.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#92

Post by crusso »

heretohelp wrote: post #91
crusso wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You appear to be constructing some sort of opposition to your preferred way of working when there is none. You said you wanted to kill yourself after reading an article about someone who talks about working hard and her management techniques at one of the most highly successful technology companies in the world that is listed as THE best company to work at in the country. Exactly how am I misunderstanding your own…

What are you trying to prove exactly? That I'm coffee-deprived and tired? Google being a good place to work at really has nothing to do with demanding overtime of employees. For that matter, Google isn't even guilty of what I'm talking about. Given those two statements, everything you've just said is null. What an immense waste of time.

> What are you trying to prove exactly?

Just trying to probe the depths of the reasoning of someone posting something that's contrary to the conclusions I've drawn from life.

> What an immense waste of time.

If you say so. I gained another little data point in my mental model under the section of "Why do some people react so strongly against others who profess to work hard?" So, thanks.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#93

Post by heretohelp »

crusso wrote: post #92
heretohelp wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you trying to prove exactly? That I'm coffee-deprived and tired? Google being a good place to work at really has nothing to do with demanding overtime of employees. For that matter, Google isn't even guilty of what I'm talking about. Given those two statements, everything you've just said is null. What an immense waste of time.

> What are you trying to prove exactly? Just trying to probe the depths of the reasoning of someone posting something that's contrary to the conclusions I've drawn from life. > What an immense waste of time. If you say so. I gained another little data point in my mental model under the section of "Why do some people react so strongly against others who profess to work hard?" So, thanks.

That's a bad data point.

I'm not against working hard, I'm against forcing others to work hard for your benefit without commensurate reward.

What is so difficult to understand about that?

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#94

Post by heretohelp »

crusso wrote: post #78
lfborjas wrote: post #36

Articles like this remind me of Bertrand Russell's [In praise of idleness]( http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html ): "I want to say, in all seriousness, that a great deal of harm is being done in the modern world by belief in the virtuousness of work, and that the road to happiness and prosperity lies in an organized diminution of work."

I love Bertrand Russell. Such brilliant quotes. I especially love his thoughts on religion. Unfortunately, he was no futurist. His view of the manual laborer doing all the work vs the bosses telling the worker what to do was hopelessly mired in the past and plagued with his thinking that the industrial revolution's growing pains were permanent or even worsening. Given that Peter Drucker was around and writing at the…

Funny you mention that you love Bertrand Russell since he was a massive fan of idleness and against the cult of overwork.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#95

Post by napillo »

Sorry, but if you have to come in to work for 130 hours, unless you are getting paid overtime, that's just insane. You aren't going to be able to get much done. If you can't get done what you need to get done within a regular 8 hour a day, 40 hours a week work week, then you need to learn how to set deadlines and perhaps think about a different line of work.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#96

Post by crusso »

carterschonwald wrote: post #70
libria wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not all. If you're criticizing the author for omitting facts, it should go without saying you need to cite them.

http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/fortune/how_i_work/frameset... "My day starts around 9 A.M. and meetings finish up around 8 P.M. After that I stay in the office to do action items and e-mail. I can get by on four to six hours of sleep. I pace myself by taking a week-long vacation every four months." and thats just the first google result for "marissa mayer sleep"

Kind of an aside, but I find the requirement of providing proof in an argument to be pretty ambiguous in an age where Googling things is so darned easy.

Sure, I could find a link that gives the quantum dynamics of why water is wet when I use that fact in an argument... but do I really need to? These days, it seems that pushing back on people to provide easily knowable supporting information is just a delaying tactic or cognitive dissonance coping method... as in "Oops, I just read a really uncomfortable conclusion... I think I'll ask for proof then close this window before it's actually provided." :)

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#97

Post by mratzloff »

groby_b wrote: post #59
j_baker wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, frequently such a person is the type to make others think they're contributing merely by being at the office for such a long time. "Marissa must be getting things done. She works here 130 hours a week!" Yet if you look, they probably aren't actually working the entire time they're in the office.

I can't speak for Marissa, but I certainly did pull one or two 130-hour weeks "back in the day". They _were_ productive. I did pay a huge price for them, both in terms of reduced productivity for weeks afterwards, and in terms of health. (I always get a horrible cold after exhausting myself that much) There are two things to keep in mind: 1) These weeks were rare . I'd expect they were rare for Marissa too. You can't…

I've worked long hours too. Being a hero is counterproductive in so many ways. If a deadline requires that level of exhaustion, you're doing it wrong.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#98

Post by napillo »

unwind wrote: post #3
leftnode wrote: post #2

The paragraph When Mayer suspects an employee might burn out, she asks them to find their rhythm. They've come back with, "I need to be home for Tuesday night dinners," or "I need to be on time for my daughter's soccer games." really bothers me. If employee burnout is a regular thing inside your organization, that's a serious issue that needs solving. But to have to ask permission to spend time with your family is ri…

Agreed, it reads like pure insanity. That you would only be "granted" to have time for your family if you're on the brink of burn-out is ... horrible. I'm pretty sure that's not the general guideline about how Google operates, not sure if there's some editing and/or language barrier here.

Yeah. You know how I avoid burnout? I work 8 hours a day, no more no less. Occasionally, I will work a 9 hour day, but that's a rarity. If I can't get done what I need to do in an 8 hour day, well it just has to wait until tomorrow. Perhaps I'll put in two three hour days on the weekends. Either way, I am a programmer, and I am at my best when I program for 6 hours or less per day. The more time I spend thinking about an issue, the better my programs will be. If I am going to be sitting at my desk, coding away, for 12 hours straight, you will see some sorry excuse for code because I haven't thought through the whole process.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#99

Post by crusso »

heretohelp wrote: post #93
crusso wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are you trying to prove exactly? Just trying to probe the depths of the reasoning of someone posting something that's contrary to the conclusions I've drawn from life. > What an immense waste of time. If you say so. I gained another little data point in my mental model under the section of "Why do some people react so strongly against others who profess to work hard?" So, thanks.

That's a bad data point. I'm not against working hard, I'm against forcing others to work hard for your benefit without commensurate reward. What is so difficult to understand about that?

In the context of Google, your use of the terms "forcing" and "commensurate reward" are decidedly oxymoronic. I'd make the case that in the US and most other Western countries, your use of those terms doesn't really make sense.

Do you live in some non-free society where you aren't allowed to quit a job and find another more suitable to your liking? Maybe you live somewhere where you aren't allowed to start your own business and take part in deciding your own compensation? I'd guess North Korea, but your English is extremely good and I didn't think they were allowed to access the Internet.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#100

Post by groby_b »

mratzloff wrote: post #97
groby_b wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for Marissa, but I certainly did pull one or two 130-hour weeks "back in the day". They _were_ productive. I did pay a huge price for them, both in terms of reduced productivity for weeks afterwards, and in terms of health. (I always get a horrible cold after exhausting myself that much) There are two things to keep in mind: 1) These weeks were rare . I'd expect they were rare for Marissa too. You can't…

I've worked long hours too. Being a hero is counterproductive in so many ways. If a deadline requires that level of exhaustion, you're doing it wrong.

There _are_ deadlines that are worth it. Putting in the extra hours so the decision demo to the VC guys is smoother? Uh, yes. Same goes for e.g. working on reducing network traffic before a spike will hit, if that reduction will save you a million or two.

In all cases, make sure the payout is commensurate with your effort - i.e. unless you own equity or there is a large bonus attached to that, IMHO you should tell the powers that be to go pound sand.

And putting in those hours because your manager didn't listen to your estimates in the first place? Hell no.

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