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How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

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Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#81

Post by gxs »

s1rech wrote: post #12

First of all, I very much doubt that she actually worked 130 hours per week with any regularity. That comes to 18.5 hours per day, including sundays. Even assuming that she could survive with 3 hours of sleep per day (yeah, sure), it leaves almost no time to eat, commute, or god, even going to the bathroom. And why in the world is she giving advice on burnout?

Not to sound condescending, but use a little common sense here. Even people that work 40 hours a week aren't on task 100% of the time.

In a given day I'll take a couple coffee breaks, maybe go outside for a couple breaths of fresh air, and use the restroom at least twice, in addition to my lunch hour.

That said - those 40 hours that I am in the office aren't hours I am free to use however I please, so it is customary to say that you work 40 hours a week, not 35.8 hours per week, etc.

It's not hard to conceive of a situation where it just works out to be easier to be in the office every waking hour, particularly working on startups. This doesn't mean you don't stop to watch a funny youtube clip or set up a good music playlist- it just means its time fenced off from any other major commitments.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#82

Post by ori_b »

crusso wrote: post #79
ori_b wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who works at Google, I can say that (at least within my team) people do not tend to work unreasonable hours. People will stay late during crunch time, or when they're on a roll. But there is no expectation that you will work yourself into the ground. There's an expectation of high productivity within a 40 hour work week, plus or minus. There's expectations that people will react to emergencies and deal wit…

That's why I was careful to say that Google expects people to "produce", not work ridiculous hours. Plus, I have no idea what Google is expecting its works to do these days. You say one thing, employee #20 makes it sound like a meal with the family on Tuesday night is the exception, not the rule. I will say that if Google doesn't keep a strong work ethic, it will go the way of Apple in the late 80's and early 90's. I…

I suspect that's more a result of a response to the low-productivity spiral that burnout seems to be. You lose productivity, so you push yourself harder, so you become less productive, so you feel the need to spend more hours, and soon you end up drained and unable to accomplish anything.

If you're in this spiral, then you need to step back and think of what you need to do to recharge. That might become a realization that "I've stopped spending time with my family; I'm going to make sure I'm at dinner with them every Thursday".

I'd find it extremely strange to hear that someone at Google was prevented from making time to spend time with family on a regular basis. I wouldn't be surprised that an employee in the process of burning out needed encouragement to step back.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#83

Post by j_baker »

groby_b wrote: post #59
j_baker wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, frequently such a person is the type to make others think they're contributing merely by being at the office for such a long time. "Marissa must be getting things done. She works here 130 hours a week!" Yet if you look, they probably aren't actually working the entire time they're in the office.

I can't speak for Marissa, but I certainly did pull one or two 130-hour weeks "back in the day". They _were_ productive. I did pay a huge price for them, both in terms of reduced productivity for weeks afterwards, and in terms of health. (I always get a horrible cold after exhausting myself that much) There are two things to keep in mind: 1) These weeks were rare . I'd expect they were rare for Marissa too. You can't…

I don't doubt that they were productive. It's just that such long hours are frequently a way to cover up lack of productivity rather than increasing your productivity.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#84

Post by crusso »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #13

I think that its great that it worked for Marissa Mayer. But, the culture of working over 40 hours is troubling. It really puts into perspective what you should value. I value my free time too much to take that choice.

What's troubling? A culture of working over 40 hours? Or the fact that some people choose to?

Is it your perception that our culture is moving toward working more hours?

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS

The trend appears to be downward. Yay?

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#85

Post by crusso »

heretohelp wrote: post #80

"Grant your employees one must-have freedom" I'm the CTO at a startup and I have employees that are my responsibility. The mere idea that it's appropriate for me to grant one of my people a personal freedom that was theirs to begin with is offensive. A company that requires overwork from its people, especially salaried people, in order to sustain itself doesn't deserve to exist. Paid overtime is another story and is…

  A company that requires overwork from its people, especially salaried people,
  in order to sustain itself doesn't deserve to exist.
I find such strong visceral statements like this really curious and am trying to understand them. Do you resent people who want to work ridiculous hours? Or just the companies that expect their employees to put in overtime?

Do you resent companies that expect overtime from employees as sort of a shared sacrifice on the hopeful way to something like an IPO or buyout where everyone gets a reward for that sacrifice?

If I have a choice to work at company A where I can put in minimal hours and company B where the company expects me to put in "unpaid" overtime. Do you view company B as not deserving to exist?

Do you not support my desire to work in the company and environment that I wish to? Would it be for my own good for company B to be shut down?

  Paid overtime is another
  story and is a common aspect of the how the manufacturing sector works.
Are you under the impression that Google employees haven't been extraordinarily compensated for the hours they've put in?

  This article makes me want to defenestrate myself and join the Socialist Party.
If only everyone who wanted to join the Socialist Party would defenestrate themselves. I commend you for that choice. :P I kid. I kid.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#86

Post by bmj »

eshvk wrote: post #34
bmj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think that's the problem with the article--is the advice geared toward start-up employees, or current Googlers? I agree that in a start-up, you should likely expect longer weeks (even all-nighters), and maybe you do need to ask to have dinner with your family[1]. But at an established company? Seems like a cultural issue. [1] FWIW, I still think this is insane, and would never want to do it.

I think she is merely recounting a story from the early days of Google and relating it to the larger problem of employee burnout. I know quite a few current Googlers and as far as I understand nothing so ridiculous happens there now. Of course the problem is incredibly relevant to Startups: I would never enjoy myself in such a restrictive situation unless I was working on my idea but again different people have diffe…

I don't disagree, and I'm trying to criticize Mayer here--I think the "article" is a bit poorly written, and I imagine some mid-manager somewhere reading it and thinking "oh, I can make my devs works 100 hours a week, as long as I let them eat dinner with their kids once a week."

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#87

Post by heretohelp »

crusso wrote: post #85
heretohelp wrote: post #80

"Grant your employees one must-have freedom" I'm the CTO at a startup and I have employees that are my responsibility. The mere idea that it's appropriate for me to grant one of my people a personal freedom that was theirs to begin with is offensive. A company that requires overwork from its people, especially salaried people, in order to sustain itself doesn't deserve to exist. Paid overtime is another story and is…

A company that requires overwork from its people, especially salaried people, in order to sustain itself doesn't deserve to exist. I find such strong visceral statements like this really curious and am trying to understand them. Do you resent people who want to work ridiculous hours? Or just the companies that expect their employees to put in overtime? Do you resent companies that expect overtime from employees as so…

>Do you resent people who want to work ridiculous hours?

Hell no, if it makes them happy then that's fine, but if it starts producing burnout or interfering with their ability to perform, they need to ratchet it back and chill out. (Which has happened at my company, I've had to intervene and tell a coworker to relax and take some time off.)

My coworkers have nothing to prove to me by spending all day and night at the office.

>Or just the companies that expect their employees to put in overtime?

You're not really being precise enough. It depends on the reward structure and how frequent it is. The infrequent push to finish a release, fine. A consistent/constant expectation that salaried (no paid overtime at all) employees be working over ~40 hours a week is obscene. It's different, I'd argue, for lawyers and factory workers as their reward structures are a bit different.

>Do you view company B as not deserving to exist?

Only if said overtime is necessary for their business model to function. A business that has to abuse its own people in order to exist is just a scam hidden by abstraction and cultural acceptance. If it's doing so out of greed, then the reward structure needs revised. Law firms resolved this a long time ago.

>Do you not support my desire to work in the company and environment that I wish to?

I'm talking about abusing people who don't want to work all that overtime and spend time with their families. My company already has one person in particular who works odd/lots of hours. I don't begrudge him that, it's just an aspect of how he manages his time. My issue is with categorically expecting unpaid overtime of all employees, week-in, week-out with no real reward above the usual salary.

You appear to be constructing some sort of opposition to your preferred way of working when there is none.

>Are you under the impression that Google employees haven't been extraordinarily compensated for the hours they've put in?

Are you under the impression that Google is still minting millionaire chefs?

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#88

Post by crusso »

ori_b wrote: post #82
crusso wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I was careful to say that Google expects people to "produce", not work ridiculous hours. Plus, I have no idea what Google is expecting its works to do these days. You say one thing, employee #20 makes it sound like a meal with the family on Tuesday night is the exception, not the rule. I will say that if Google doesn't keep a strong work ethic, it will go the way of Apple in the late 80's and early 90's. I…

I suspect that's more a result of a response to the low-productivity spiral that burnout seems to be. You lose productivity, so you push yourself harder, so you become less productive, so you feel the need to spend more hours, and soon you end up drained and unable to accomplish anything. If you're in this spiral, then you need to step back and think of what you need to do to recharge. That might become a realization…

  I suspect that's more a result of a response to the low-productivity spiral that burnout seems to be.
I'm a little lost as to which part of my comment this was in response to. At Apple in the early 90's, you could rarely find an engineer at his desk. Working interactively with people was a bit of a mess, what with all the ping pong, foosball, video game playing, the midday trips to the gym, the beer parties, and some peoples' weekly offsites to see a movie. The only people getting any sort of burnout or burns just weren't changing out their bong water often enough.

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#89

Post by crusso »

heretohelp wrote: post #87
crusso wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company that requires overwork from its people, especially salaried people, in order to sustain itself doesn't deserve to exist. I find such strong visceral statements like this really curious and am trying to understand them. Do you resent people who want to work ridiculous hours? Or just the companies that expect their employees to put in overtime? Do you resent companies that expect overtime from employees as so…

>Do you resent people who want to work ridiculous hours? Hell no, if it makes them happy then that's fine, but if it starts producing burnout or interfering with their ability to perform, they need to ratchet it back and chill out. (Which has happened at my company, I've had to intervene and tell a coworker to relax and take some time off.) My coworkers have nothing to prove to me by spending all day and night at the…

> You appear to be constructing some sort of opposition to your preferred way of working when there is none.

You said you wanted to kill yourself after reading an article about someone who talks about working hard and her management techniques at one of the most highly successful technology companies in the world that is listed as THE best company to work at in the country. Exactly how am I misunderstanding your own words and how much are you to blame for putting them together the way you did?

> Are you under the impression that Google is still minting millionaire chefs?

Seriously, number one in the country. I'm not exaggerating.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/best-companies/2012/f...

Are you under the impression that there aren't other reasons to work someplace besides just the money?

Re: How Google's Marissa Mayer Prevents Burnout

#90

Post by crusso »

ficho wrote: post #28
taytus wrote: post #9

I love google, but I am calling bs on this.

+1, this reads more like corporate branding on how cool can early googlers be more than anything else. I'm pretty happy for her if she manages 130 hours a week, but this doesn't work for everyone... if any. I don't really care in the debate of working your ass off or staying sane and mentally fresh to be productive, but Google pushing this fact is just plain sad. What are we supposed to react? Just awe in admiration…

> but Google pushing this fact is just plain sad.

Do you think it's part of some larger corporate effort on their part?

Seems like they need to talk to the employees who posted contrary statements in this thread. They don't seem to be on-message.

> Plus I was at the talk and it was sadly sadly corporate.

Wouldn't you expect someone highly successful in a corporate environment when asked about work environment issues to give you a very successfully-minded corporate type of answer?

The surprise to me would have been if she had given an answer like, "I only work 3 hours a day, then I exercise, meditate, spend time with my family, and get a good 10 hours of sleep. That's the kind of work-life balance that everyone can have and be filthy rich like I am!"

That would have been a great deal more surprising and interesting. Sadly, reality marches on and acts all boring and serious like reality tends to do. Work hard, eat your vegetables, stay in school, don't do drugs... totally boring. :)

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