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There is no talent shortage

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Re: There is no talent shortage

#91
post #27

Talent at any company can be divided in to following categories: a. People who make code* frameworks b. People who extend code frameworks c. People who maintain code frameworks * you can replace code with almost any other employable skill "Talent shortage" usually refers to people who fall in a). Every company claims to want to hire only a) but most companies need b) or c). Very early stage startups ideally need a),…

But if that's the case the problem is different than it is portrayed to HR and that's the problem. What you need is someone for a) is someone who is both a software engineer (i.e. thinks hard about design) and is a coder/developer. The amount of experience doesn't really matter though experience is an important guide. What really matters is attitude. How does the programmer approach design questions? Is the individua…

Yup, you are right. Attitude is key to becoming a) (along with a basic level of aptitude, obviously). And, few people have the necessary self awareness.

Attitude is exactly what companies look for when they hire people with less experience. Even for more advanced programmers in a sense it is essential because you never stop learning. This is why there is some bias towards younger people as they are supposed to be more willing to learn.

But, as with any behavior, attitude becomes less necessary if a clearly defined system for mentoring/acquiring the necessary mental models is in place. Someone who graduates from a top school and ends up working at a company where a) types mentor new hires has to try significantly less than someone who graduates from a less well known school and has to figure out some way to learn from a) types.

Btw, the way a lot of the best companies bypass the HR problem is they hire based on employee recommendations. This is another contributing factor to 'talent shortage'. There is a hiring channel at any company that is much better at recognizing potential - existing employees. The high effectiveness and limited reach of this channel adds to perceived 'talent shortage'.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#92
post #82
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't tell prospective employers about doing programming gigs for $11/hr, that certainly doesn't speak very well to your judgment.

I'd love to hear the arguments for doing $11/hr programming jobs instead of just getting downvoted.

While I felt compelled to downvote you, I won't since you ask nicely. You should explain how it doesn't speak well for his judgment. Doing translation work isn't the same as programming on the pay scale, and any respectable employer should realize that when it comes time to discuss compensation for a programming position. In fact, I feel it speaks highly of his character in that A) he's motivated enough to continue with some form of work while looking for a programming job, and B) that he has the talent to do translation work in the first place.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#93
post #66
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to be complaining. It's just an unexpected outcome for me. I can't remember ever having to look for this long before. About half the work I've done has been under my own employ and 80% it has been in Taiwan or China. Truth be told, I've never dealt with a "real HR" department before! I've got a $500/month place in Chinatown, and really haven't found anything near that price with English speaking landlor…

Just don't tell prospective employers about doing programming gigs for $11/hr, that certainly doesn't speak very well to your judgment.

Can you offer some constructive advice?

I've been actively seeking something paid at a higher rate using platforms I've already worked on (iOS or JS/CSS), but it's going slowly. Translation is good for helping me continue to use and strengthen my 2nd (or 3rd) language. The rails work is priced as it is because I've never used rails before and I'm spending at least half the time reading docs. It's not a good long-term money-making solution, but I am learning and I'm adding something to my portfolio.

What would someone with good judgement do if their funds were running out and finding a real gig was clearly in sight but moving slowly? Missing rent would bring all kinds of pain I don't want to deal with and wreak my credit.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#94
post #9

I didn't encounter programming by luck. I was mesmerized by the first computer I saw, and soon sought out programming through library books and hobbyist magazines. At that time, home computers were rare and expensive, so I was lucky that my parents' indulgence made my obsession possible, but now? They're so common that it's very likely John's family had a desktop on which he could simply type "I want to program compu…

You're assuming that someone knows what "I want to program computers" means. I didn't. I loved playing around with computers. But no one in my family was technical. None of my friends programmed. I literally had no idea what programming was. Most people don't, even those who are otherwise very effective with computers. Now I've started, much later, and I love it. This xkcd comic is relevant: http://xkcd.com/519/ I'm…

I feel somewhat the same. I'm 16 and have only been doing this for 2 years. I know several people my age who have been doing this much longer and who have had way more monetary success in doing so.

I'd say I have a decent amount of talent, and spend probably 75% of my waking hours increasing said talent, but I still feel sort of late. I often lie awake wondering if I'm already behind in my career.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#95
post #29
post #13

It is a weird market. I've been job searching pretty hard for the past month in SF and the response has been a bit frustrating. I get tons of people reaching out to me after meeting me at tech meetups, etc, but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions. I…

"but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! "From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions." I hope any HR people who have had your resume cross their desk are sweating at the thought of age discrimination scrutiny. It may be there's a shortage of HR talent, not tech talent.

>I hope any HR people who have had your resume cross their desk are sweating at the thought of age discrimination scrutiny.

Did Glinda flit in from Oz and wave her magic wand, correcting the past two generations' worth of age discrimination problems in the Valley? Did the EEOC's jack-booted thugs suddenly start raiding offices last week and I didn't read about it in the Murky News?

>It may be there's a shortage of HR talent, not tech talent.

But they not only have certificates, they have college degrees in HR now! A shortage? That's unpossible.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#96
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a pretty similar situation (30 years old, no full-time programming on my résumé, but a long history of technical problem solving). One thing I'll add is that, at least for me, the problem of employers only looking for people with X skill right now is not as bad in SF as it is elsewhere. I'm in Washington, DC and the only interest I've gotten has been from companies in the Bay area.

That sounds crazy to me. Are you able to get a clearance of any kind? If you are eligible then there should be thousands of jobs in the DC area to choose from. Of course, those aren't super exciting startup-like jobs, but they are places where you'll get a bunch of experience.

I already have a clearance. I guess this means I've probably been talking to the wrong people.

For the contractors I've been talking to, when I tell them that I write python when I can, PHP when I'm patching stuff I wrote a few years ago, and javascript when it needs to run client-side, and that I spend my days maintaining systems running Ubuntu server I get a response something like "yeah... that's not really what we're looking for.

And maybe I've been too quick to dismiss working in a Windows/ASP/VB shop. Those folks have challenging problems to solve too, and reasons for using the tools they use. Thanks for reminding me of that.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#97
post #95
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! "From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions." I hope any HR people who have had your resume cross their desk are sweating at the thought of age discrimination scrutiny. It may be there's a shortage of HR talent, not tech talent.

>I hope any HR people who have had your resume cross their desk are sweating at the thought of age discrimination scrutiny. Did Glinda flit in from Oz and wave her magic wand, correcting the past two generations' worth of age discrimination problems in the Valley? Did the EEOC's jack-booted thugs suddenly start raiding offices last week and I didn't read about it in the Murky News? >It may be there's a shortage of HR…

I said talent, not bodies.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gladwell's theory, as I've heard it, is that mastery demands 10,000 hours of good quality practice. When your developers cost $75 an hour including overheads, paying people for those 10,000 hours is an extremely costly proposition.

Gladwell was arguing that it takes 10,000 hours to go from a knowing nothing to becoming a master at any craft. At 8 hours a day, every single day, is ~3.5 years. For programmers, most of the initial chunk of that time is through hobby programming or through formal training at a college or the like. That's 3000 hours that the company didn't pay for. That's probably the experience most programmers walk in to any compa…

When I say $75 an hour including overheads I don't mean a salary of $150,000 - I mean a salary of $60,000 plus tax plus health insurance plus pension contribution plus office space plus a desk plus a computer plus the calls to IT Helpdesk plus the line manager's time plus any commercial software plus other developers' time coaching plus the 20% cut paid to the recruiter plus the HR and payroll people's time plus networking and internet connection plus the backed up storage space on file and mail servers plus the car parking space plus a phone line plus cleaning plus the break room food and coffee.

Of course these things are company-dependent, but I'm a comparatively junior developer and for purposes of internal costing my employer costs my time at $75 an hour.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#99
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if that's the case the problem is different than it is portrayed to HR and that's the problem. What you need is someone for a) is someone who is both a software engineer (i.e. thinks hard about design) and is a coder/developer. The amount of experience doesn't really matter though experience is an important guide. What really matters is attitude. How does the programmer approach design questions? Is the individua…

Yup, you are right. Attitude is key to becoming a) (along with a basic level of aptitude, obviously). And, few people have the necessary self awareness. Attitude is exactly what companies look for when they hire people with less experience. Even for more advanced programmers in a sense it is essential because you never stop learning. This is why there is some bias towards younger people as they are supposed to be mor…

I would say it is at least as essential for advanced programmers.

I have worked with a lot of programmers and I find you can basically throw advanced programmers into three groups:

1) Those who think about and figure out how to write maintainable code (these are a small minority btw!)

2) Those who believe that writing maintainable code is a matter of following coding conventions they are comfortable with, and

3) Those who just want to get stuff done.

I think that #3 will only make competent maintenance programmers. You do not want to be stuck maintaining a major app one of them built. #2 will be fine at extending existing frameworks once they become comfortable with them, but #1 are the ones who can create new framework code and make it work.

As for mentoring that's key (and was for my own development as a programmer and software engineer) but many people just never "get it" even with all the mentoring in the world. Either they are not listening or they are not drawing the right messages from it. This is tough because in order to get to #1, you have to be willing to question what your mentor says. If you mechanically follow it, you end up in the second category.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#100
post #86
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The "talent shortage" is a lack of employable programmers period , not just a lack of exceptional programmers. And this is easy to see: everybody I know in my class (also Berkeley, coincidentally) has managed to get an internship or full time job without much effort. This includes both people with and without experience before college. I managed to get a couple of interesting offers despite never sending my…

there is some shortage of programmers of any but minimal competence I think our industry sets a high bar for "minimal competence". It isn't fizzbuzz. I went to an interview where I was asked to write, on the whiteboard, a recursive solution to the problem of printing all possible permutations of a string. I blew it, and of course I went home and worked on it a bit and solved it (the way I usually program, try it a bi…

Actually some schools are facing class action lawsuits for inflating reported JD salaries and placement rates.

But Biglaw/MBA Consulting pay so much because the firms are oligopolies with gentlemen's agreements not to compete on price.

That's not going to happen in a field with mesurable results.

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