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The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

tomforth.co.uk

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Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#91

Post by arichard123 »

This is how I feel actually. I live in the UK and the new government has started doing very sensible things. They are actually dealing with a lot of points made in the comments here. I look at the weakness of the 2 presidential candidates in the US, the rise of the far-right in the two European powerhouses of France and Germany, and the risk of deflation in China and I think, gosh! Maybe this is right? We are looking like the stable sensible choice, at least for now.

Maybe, we have, as a country all agreed the Brexit was terrible, and things can be done better and maybe we've handed power to the right people.

Let me start with the Eton/Posh thing, the new cabinet is not that. The new parliament is not that. 80% of the cabinet are comprehensive educated:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/05/most-state-e...

The head of health had Kidney cancer and was saved by the NHS. The head of housing grew up in a council house, the head of prisons is a well known employer of ex-prisoners, the head of science used to be the head of R&D at GSK. The list could go on. As Starmer would say, it's people with "skin in the game" having the power.

And the fact they are bringing in non-politicians to get jobs done, superb.

Specifically on the splitting of the country between north and south to do an analysis, I do think that is valid, and instructional. We have seen various countries over the last 150 years achieve high growth when they have got focused on catching up to the better countries. The US grew quickly when it was catching up to the UK after the industrial revolution, and the UK grew quickly when we were catching up after WWII. China grew quickly when it was catching up to the west. Then, once it's done, growth goes back to a normal 1-2%. Well, perhaps, the UK can have the North catch up to the south and provide the growth. I look at what Manchester was 15 years ago, what Leeds was 15 years ago, and I think, sure, that's completely do-able.

Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#92

Post by thebruce87m »

c7THEC2DDFVV2V wrote: post #89
thebruce87m wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“English” and “British” are not interchangeable.

depends who you're speaking to.

As someone who is British but not English, you’re going to have to explain that one to me.

Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#93

Post by JumpCrisscross »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #82
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I’m also not suggesting they try re-running a cotton economy. > so I doesn't depend on slaves?" One, don’t fake quote others. Two, nobody argued this. American wealth depends on agriculture and energy (and having taken that from our Indians); that doesn’t mean betting on corn and fracking is a good economic plan, or that Argentina is a surefire bet for sharing those same strengths. Regardless of how it was ac…

One, don't attack people but arguments. I'm not faking quotes, I want to understand your argument about slaves/other people had slaves too/we can be rich again, so I asked if you've meant that. I asked "Or is it:" - which makes it clear this is not a quote. Your "fake quotes" shows me we have different logic and a different understanding of rhetorical terms, and won't come to any agreement on that basis.

> your argument about slaves/other people had slaves too/we can be rich again

The point is Britain had slaves. But so did other powers that it dominated economically (and occasionally militarily). Slaves didn’t make “North England’s economy as a whole…among the strongest in Europe and thus the world”; slaves merely made it rich. Britain is already rich. Its future prosperity doesn’t need to come from exploitation.

Like, Britain also had trees. And mailboxes. And black pudding. But trees and mailboxes and blood sausages aren’t why it had one of the strongest economies in the world. Similarly, yes, Britain had slaves, but slaves weren’t why it had the strongest economy in Europe, a continent with several slavery enthusiasts.

Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#94

Post by JumpCrisscross »

defrost wrote: post #81
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Samoa.

Makes me wonder just how relatively valuable copra and cocoa bean were to the US and Europe if outside resource lust underpinned an eight year civil war way out in the Pacific. The Germans, in particular, began to show great commercial interest in the Samoan Islands, especially on the island of Upolu, where German firms monopolised copra and cocoa bean processing. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoa leading to: htt…

> wonder just how relatively valuable copra and cocoa bean were

Profit is revenue minus cost. Cost of colonisation is vastly reduced if the target nation is infighting. Cocoa was absolutely valuable, but Samoa’s attractiveness may have also been in its inability to defend itself. (Particularly against European weapons.)

Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#95

Post by nuc1e0n »

bamboozled wrote: post #30
dmillar wrote: post #8

The UK still has a heavily embedded caste or caste-like social circumstance. Pharma and finance have somewhat eschewed this tradition, but even those industries still have its embedded lords and ladies. Many of their smartest head to the US (or elsewhere), and Brexit has set them back decades from achieving the "richest country" status. A software engineer can double their earnings by moving to the US (if they can ma…

If you think about the times when England was on top, what do you remember about it? They made things, they made really good things. Precision tools, weapons, navy ships, fighter jets, amazing cars, trains, computers. The best tools I've ever used as a woodworker have all been English. I really miss that time hanging out in my grandfathers shed using all his British, American and German hand tools. I sort of lost tra…

The UK stills makes good cars, but the management at British car plants is now Japanese. When the management was British there was a lot of industrial action. No longer.

What does that say about what they teach at places like Eton?

Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#96

Post by defrost »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #94
defrost wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes me wonder just how relatively valuable copra and cocoa bean were to the US and Europe if outside resource lust underpinned an eight year civil war way out in the Pacific. The Germans, in particular, began to show great commercial interest in the Samoan Islands, especially on the island of Upolu, where German firms monopolised copra and cocoa bean processing. ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoa leading to: htt…

> wonder just how relatively valuable copra and cocoa bean were Profit is revenue minus cost. Cost of colonisation is vastly reduced if the target nation is infighting. Cocoa was absolutely valuable, but Samoa’s attractiveness may have also been in its inability to defend itself. (Particularly against European weapons.)

Particularly against European machinations.

There's a robust pattern of increased infighting wherever the European colonists went .. almost as if they delibrately sowed discontent and sold weapons at discount to all sides.

Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#97

Post by cassianoleal »

csomar wrote: post #35
throwup238 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK experienced that same right wing shift 14 years ago and is now dealing with the fallout. Europe is still in its honeymoon phase with the latest batch of right wing demagogues.

France very recently did a full 180.

Not quite. France has been "centre" for a while. Recently the far-right gained some ground. A left alliance appeared but now Macron's centre doesn't want to bring the largest party of the left alliance into the government.

That's at most a 25 degree turn IMO, but in reality it's probably going to be crazy steering and hoping not to hit the guardrails or run off the cliff.

Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#98

Post by ultimatewhip »

thebruce87m wrote: post #86
ultimatewhip wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is a bit unfair. Plenty of people living in cities in the north voted for Labour rather than the Conservatives. In 2019 constintuencies in Bradford and Leeds which were mentioned in the article voted Labour. The same problem exists in the USA where in a red state a county representing a large city votes Democrat but the rural areas or surburban enclaves vote Republican. Take Texas in 2020, Austin, Housto…

Note that Bradford and Leeds are not in the north of the UK. English people will refer to the north of England as “the north” even when talking in the context of the UK.

I mean they are considered to be in Northern England, unless you don't consider Yorkshire and the Humber area not to be northern. The area borders North West England and is more northern at its southern most point than North West England's southern most point.

Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#99

Post by thebruce87m »

ultimatewhip wrote: post #98
thebruce87m wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Bradford and Leeds are not in the north of the UK. English people will refer to the north of England as “the north” even when talking in the context of the UK.

I mean they are considered to be in Northern England, unless you don't consider Yorkshire and the Humber area not to be northern. The area borders North West England and is more northern at its southern most point than North West England's southern most point.

The article is about the UK and so is the comment chain. These places might be in the north of England, but at no point was the context switched to England, except implicitly by the commenter which is why I added the note.

English people will implicitly change the context, and other English people will follow but this can be confusing for other readers since they might assume the north of the UK (Scotland) when they are really talking about the middle of the UK (north of England).

Re: The UK can go back to being the richest country in the world

#100

Post by c7THEC2DDFVV2V »

thebruce87m wrote: post #92
c7THEC2DDFVV2V wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

depends who you're speaking to.

As someone who is British but not English, you’re going to have to explain that one to me.

I've met many Welsh, Scottish and English who don't identify as British. I'm first, not British.

I'm British, born in England.

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