Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000% • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#91

Post by dmatthewson » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 2:40 PM UTC

mironathetin wrote: post #69

morsch wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fee pays for public broadcasting, not just public TV. Public broadcasting includes TV, radio, and the internet presence of the TV and radio media. I don't have a TV, but I do listen to public radio and I use public news web sites all the time. I think the new system is much more reasonable than the previous system, which had loads of people claiming they don't own any kind of receiving device when that claim is j…

I agree, the previous system was bad. It has been replaced by a system that is also bad. Even worse, this one can be attacked in court because it is obviously unfair. This is the only situation I know, where a company distributes their product for free and then asks everybody to pay for it. This is a special situation of course, because the public broadcasting has the official task to educate and report in a neutral…

Why not just get rid of the state owned propaganda channels? Why is that never an option. It's absurd to have to be subjected to state propaganda and be made to pay for it. Brainwashing should be free, no?

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#92

Post by mironathetin » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 2:41 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #83

mironathetin wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not confusing the two. The issue is the same: static payment in the form of a tax/obligatory fee, without providing a service. You pay a tax for empty CDs, because you COULD copy music onto them. You pay a fee for public broadcasting, because you COULD use it. The companies are different, but the idea and the mindset is the same. Collecting money, even if a service is not used.

No, we pay for public broadcasting because there once was a consensus that public broadcasting is an important thing to have in a democratic society, not because we might listen to it. We also pay for operas, museums, street maintenance, public transportation and another ton of things we may actually never use and might not have a need for. This is a completely different issue and folding them together will not help.…

"If you disagree on the notion that a public broadcasting organization is required, you're free to lobby for it. "

Read my other posts and you see that I don't disagree. This is about how the internet presence is used as a handle to collect money from everyone, not only the users. The fact that public broadcast is transmitted through the internet is everything BUT a reason to collect money from everyone.

Please note, that currently only the users are charged.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#93

Post by davedx » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 2:54 PM UTC

LinXitoW wrote: post #31

linhat wrote: post #29

While this is already 2 weeks old[1], being german this still drives me nuts. It's not only their refusal to explain why exactly they feel the need to increase these charges, it's their complete ignorance as to the actual use of these storage mediums. I really hope that Bitkom finds a way to fight back. But the real Problem here is (as almost always when it comes to digital rights) the GEMA. They are the reason why Y…

To clarify your first point: They've justified this by saying that compression algorithms have gotten better meaning people can store more on less, which is idiotic, seeing how files get a lot bigger because of higher quality. Their explanations are based on a study that isn't even available to the public. The tax is also levied on SD cards, which afaik no one ever uses for anything else than as a storage for media y…

I use my SD card exclusively to copy pirated movies from my netbook to play in our DVD player :P

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#94

Post by H4wk_cz » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 3:02 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #71

rplnt wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What country you do live in? I'm just curious where this doesn't exist. In Slovakia (and also Czech Rep.) you have to pay for empty hard drives, DVDs, ... But pirating movies/music isn't illegal so I guess it evens out?

>But pirating movies/music isn't illegal so I guess it evens out? I don't live in Slovakia or the Czech Republic but I'm just going to go ahead and say you're wrong.

I do live in Czech Republic and it's not illegal to download music and movies. However, sharing is illegal, so e.g. torrents are illegal.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#95

Post by sanswork » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 3:29 PM UTC

dalore wrote: post #39

foob wrote: post #28

We have similar 3% in the US on blank media cds ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#United_Sta... ). The Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, the same legislation that put these levies into place, also protected the rights of individuals to make non-commercial copies of copyrighted works. At least that's my read on it, though I am not a lawyer. All of the comments here seem vehemently opposed to the levy…

If I lived in a country where the "pirate" levy was in place I would feel justified in copyright infringement because I would feel I have already paid for it.

The way the laws worked out to allow pirate taxes in Canada means that a lot of "piracy" is now legal. Though the media companies are now working on having the tax and making it illegal so we'll see how that goes.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#96

Post by gcb » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 3:31 PM UTC

frooxie wrote: post #76

dalore wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I lived in a country where the "pirate" levy was in place I would feel justified in copyright infringement because I would feel I have already paid for it.

I doubt that this is a "pirate levy" at all. The fee on storage media is usually supposed to cover media shared with family and close friends, which is legal in many countries and does not count as piracy.

So when i buy media to back up my own work i have to pay a fee intended as a taxation to people that listen to music or watches movies with their family and friends?

mind is full of...

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#97

Post by Xylakant » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 3:51 PM UTC

mironathetin wrote: post #92

Xylakant wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we pay for public broadcasting because there once was a consensus that public broadcasting is an important thing to have in a democratic society, not because we might listen to it. We also pay for operas, museums, street maintenance, public transportation and another ton of things we may actually never use and might not have a need for. This is a completely different issue and folding them together will not help.…

"If you disagree on the notion that a public broadcasting organization is required, you're free to lobby for it. " Read my other posts and you see that I don't disagree. This is about how the internet presence is used as a handle to collect money from everyone, not only the users. The fact that public broadcast is transmitted through the internet is everything BUT a reason to collect money from everyone. Please note,…

It's a common misunderstanding that only "users" are charged. Currently everyone is charged who owns a device that's in theory capable of receiving public broadcasts in whatever form available - it's irrelevant whether you use it or not. Own a radio - pay. Own a telephone with a radio receiver - pay. Own a TV-Set, but only for watching streams or DVDs on a big screen - pay. It's annoying, but somewhat consequent that everyone capable of receiving stuff on the internet has to pay as well. Actually, IMHO it should be a flat fee that everyone pays, just like the opera funding which comes from taxes. You could abandon all the GEZ and save money along the way.

If you want to pick on the GEZ system, choose a worthy target, such as the bullies they employ that sniff around and try to find people that don't pay their fees or the annoying letter they send you or the bloated administration or whatever. Or the political dependency of the "independent" broadcasting organization.

Still, my main point is a different one: It's been common consensus and obviously we still agree that a public broadcasting organization is beneficial - independent of whether we personally use it or not. And since we obviously both support that notion, we both should pay for it, as should everybody in germany. Just like for the opera.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#98

Post by Xylakant » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 4:02 PM UTC

dmatthewson wrote: post #90

Xylakant wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually use SD-cards for audio files. They're small, sturdy, convenient, every modern macbook has a suitable slot and lots of car audio systems accept them. They're kind of like a usb-stick without the clunky connector and wrapping.

OK, but most people use them for their cameras, I never even heard of anyone using them on car systems, but I'll accept it is true. Given this, why should the 99% that are taking their own photos pay a tax to support a record label organization that one of the posts above from a German says doesn't even pay out to the musicians?

Could you cite a figure for the 99% figure? Smartphones use them for data storage,... Fact is: neither you nor I know.

But anyways, the same applies to empty CDs, harddrives, DVD-Writers, ... So while I may store more audio on my SD-Cards, others store tons and tons of MP3s on their Harddrives or copy CDs - something I don't do. I still pay for that. I pay a little for what I don't use but they use and they pay a little for what they don't use, but I do. I guess such is life, it probably evens out in the end.

Sidenote: The GEMA is not a record label organizations and it does pay out. There's something horribly wrong in how they distribute the money among their members (the rich get richer, ...) and they keep roughly 20% in administrative costs, but they do pay out.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#99

Post by morsch » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 4:08 PM UTC

dmatthewson wrote: post #91

mironathetin wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, the previous system was bad. It has been replaced by a system that is also bad. Even worse, this one can be attacked in court because it is obviously unfair. This is the only situation I know, where a company distributes their product for free and then asks everybody to pay for it. This is a special situation of course, because the public broadcasting has the official task to educate and report in a neutral…

Why not just get rid of the state owned propaganda channels? Why is that never an option. It's absurd to have to be subjected to state propaganda and be made to pay for it. Brainwashing should be free, no?

Getting rid of the state owned propaganda channels is not an option because they're not exactly state owned nor are they propaganda channels.

And I'm not sure why I am supposed to prefer the brainwashing provided to me free by private channels -- free as in I pay for it once with further concentrated brainwashing in 3 minute segments and then once more when I pay the obligatory surcharge on everything because the money for those ads has to come from somewhere.

Re: Germany Increases 'You Are All Pirates' Tax On Solid State Media By 2000%

#100

Post by Xylakant » Wed, Jun 06, 2012, 4:12 PM UTC

dmatthewson wrote: post #91

mironathetin wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, the previous system was bad. It has been replaced by a system that is also bad. Even worse, this one can be attacked in court because it is obviously unfair. This is the only situation I know, where a company distributes their product for free and then asks everybody to pay for it. This is a special situation of course, because the public broadcasting has the official task to educate and report in a neutral…

Why not just get rid of the state owned propaganda channels? Why is that never an option. It's absurd to have to be subjected to state propaganda and be made to pay for it. Brainwashing should be free, no?

The basic idea was to have a channel that is neither state nor privately owned. This is why the fee is actually not a real tax, the collecting agency is not a federal agency and explains some other idiosyncrasies in the system.

It worked out somewhat ok. I'd say it's better than the Italian or the French system, but far from perfect. Separation from the government could be stronger, ... All in all I'd prefer to keep and fix it over abandoning the split and turning it all over to a private player or the government.