Live data from Hacker News

Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

bloomberg.com

91–99 of 99 posts

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for crypto to exist is to be a secondary financial system that you didn't need to be well connected to old-money entities or families in order to "win" from. The 2008 financial crash spurred many anti-capitalist and hyper-capitalist movements, one of the latter being cryptocurrency. They saw how nakedly well-connected people absolutely cashed the fuck out with the near-collapse of the banking system permit…

Crypto might somewhat divest itself of old money but it’s utterly dominated by new money. It’s an oligarchy with democratic elements. Perhaps that’s inevitable though.

It's certainly inevitable when you create a new financial system with all of the same problems as the old one and simultaneously not only strip away anything resembling consumer protections but in fact make them even harder to re-implement should anyone try.

It's a direct clone of the existing system just practically engineered from jump for financial fraud. No shock at all then that the entire thing is absolutely awash in fraud.

And the key word is need: yes it's absolutely dominated by old money assholes, but it didn't start that way, though I'm sure it was always intended which is why the most prominent crypto grifters follow the rich closely and invest in the same coins. Getting in early right before or after the big fish before the hyperdeflation kicks in (what they call "to the moon") is how you make money in crypto. You just need to then reckon with the fact that you only got rich because tons of other folks went broke, but again, if you're the hyper-capitalist type you probably see no issues at all with stepping on millions of your fellow workers if it means you get out of the wage-slave fuck barrel.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#92
post #88

DOJ statement reads like a crypto bro has written it. Is it the usual style those statements are written in?

Example(s) of what you mean from the text?

>>Unfortunately for the defendants, their alleged crimes were no match for Department of Justice prosecutors and IRS agents, who unraveled this first-of-its kind wire fraud and money laundering scheme. As cryptocurrency markets continue to evolve, the Department will continue to root out fraud, support victims, and restore confidence to these markets.”

>>Regardless of the complexity of the case, we continue to lead the effort in financial criminal investigations with cutting-edge technology and good-ole-fashioned investigative work, on and off the blockchain.”

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#93
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You think my pension plan is going to leave US exchanges to trade off shore? You think the US govt will even allow US Corps to not trade in the USA? Feel free to take your HFT off-shore: there'll be no volume.

Yeah, they would go offshore. But it would never get to that point, because the entire proposition is so asinine.

Your pension fund already trades on global exchanges.

Your pension fund has a best execution duty.

In fact splitting US equity trading into slow/fast is actually an HFT's yet dream. Price discovery would happen offshore and then they would be filling (or ignoring) slow traders onshore. What a trip.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#94

I really don’t see what these guys did wrong. Good for them for making away with $25 million…the government should leave them alone. After all, crypto bros wanted decentralized finance where code is law. But they’ll run to the government when someone outsmarts them. Reminds me of people from corrupt countries parking their money in countries with strong rule of law, where they know it can’t be seized without due proc…

The term they googled makes it clear they fully knew they weren't doing something clean. I totally see what they did wrong and here's the proof they knew too: > "allegedly “searched online for, among other things, ‘money laundering,’ ‘exploit,’ ‘computer fraud abuse act,’5 and ‘does the united states extradite to [foreign country]." But you may be seeing different things than others, including the perpetrators of thi…

As far as I know googling isn't illegal. As someone working in security I search for all kind of things. Doesn't mean I am doing them.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#96

I feel like the people who wonder why this is a crime are missing something pretty important: this isn't the SEC attempting to regulate a crypto market by prosecuting securities fraud, it's the DOJ prosecuting straight-up old fashioned fraud. The crime is changing the terms of the transaction within the 12 second time frame after it had begun but before it had finished, and ultimately selling something different than…

prior to MEV-relay arbitrage bots and generalized frontrunners did this in the public mempool via the gas auction... MEV-relay allows them to instead submit bundles of transactions ordered in the way that makes them the maximum amount of profit by offering bribes to validators to include those bundles. those bundles cost money for other network participants, because you can take a swap transaction from the public mempool and include it in a bundle where you swap before and after that transaction and profit from the slippage. this is done decreed by law but because it appeals to the financial self-interest of the searchers and validators involved. the submitted bundles are supposed to be secret--the defendants in this case figured out how to force the validators to leak the proposed blocks by signing them with an invalid header. they could then submit their own bundle that cost the original submitter money by frontrunning their attempted frontrunning.

you used to be able to trick sandwich bots without having to rely on this level of hack, see for example:

https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2021/03/22/bad-sandwich-defi-t...

so of course (smart) sandwich bot authors immediately started writing checks for poison tokens.

i'm honestly shocked that they're being prosecuted for this since it's a slight escalation on behavior that has evolved many times in ethereum's past.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#97
post #5

Correct me if my understanding is wrong, but there are no crypto transactions involved with arbitrage in the common case. Arbitrage is concerned with the relative price of two assets, for example BTC/USD. There is no bitcoin transferred from exchange A to exchange B, simply the trade of USD to BTC on exchange A and BTC to USD on exchange B.

sandwich bots exploit swap slippage on decentralized exchanges... e.g. a user submits a swap transaction from currency A to currency B with high allowed slippage, a sandwich bot notices and copies that transaction from the public mempool and constructs two swap transactions on either side of it where they swap from A to B before the user and swap from B to A after, profiting from the price move of the user's swap. they submit this as a bundle to MEV-relay with a tip high enough to have it included in a block, and if it's included they book the profit. if not included there's nothing at risk, not even wasted gas. there IS risk if the bundle is exposed to other searchers, which is what happened in this case. multiple bots will often find submit the same bundle with escalating tip amounts, so the profit eventually becomes slim with more participants trying the same sandwiches.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#98

I'm uncomfortable with the tax dollars of hard working people being used to defend the likes of those who use robots with million dollar wallets to rake up the low hanging fruit of digital arbitrage on an entirely unregulated network. They wanted the rewards that came with this risk. Now that they got hustled, they cry foul, and the DOJ is going to spend huge amounts of money litigating their case? Perhaps it is in a…

100% agree. Tax dollars should be used to regulate/protect things which are valuable for society.
Post reply on HN