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Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

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Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#81

Post by lowbloodsugar »

phyalow wrote: post #53
dheera wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TFA: "They worry that this microsecond-scale competition between algorithms is socially wasteful" I would LOVE to see a stock market that (a) time-penalizes large orders -- 1 share trades in a microsecond, 10000 shares takes a week to execute OR (b) adds a random time delay to all orders in the range of [0,60] minutes for corporations, [0,10] minutes for residential traders, and [0,1] minutes for people who have prov…

[flagged]

You think my pension plan is going to leave US exchanges to trade off shore? You think the US govt will even allow US Corps to not trade in the USA? Feel free to take your HFT off-shore: there'll be no volume.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#82

Post by unyttigfjelltol »

OutOfHere wrote: post #56
TacticalCoder wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term they googled makes it clear they fully knew they weren't doing something clean. I totally see what they did wrong and here's the proof they knew too: > "allegedly “searched online for, among other things, ‘money laundering,’ ‘exploit,’ ‘computer fraud abuse act,’5 and ‘does the united states extradite to [foreign country]." But you may be seeing different things than others, including the perpetrators of thi…

All those web search terms are relevant for indirectly helping find useful defense attorneys. If doesn't in itself demonstrate any guilt. I am not saying they're not guilty of fraud, only that a jury needs to be massively more objective than look to such searches as evidence of guilt. Also, there are probably thousands of people who do the same searches without participating in any fraud.

Since when would it even be admissible at trial to seek to obtain the advice of an attorney? The fact the DOJ put that in a press release shows they're grasping at straws.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#83

Post by OutOfHere »

jiveturkey wrote: post #69
OutOfHere wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MEV bots had a protocol that they were expected to follow. These two guys were running a secret cluster of their own bots that strongly violated the expected protocol.

I get that. Where's the criminality in that?

At the minimum it would be a CFAA violation.

Consider this simple case: if you visit me, and I show you a paper with keys to 0.1 BTC. You secretly take a picture of it while I step into the bathroom for a minute. Later you go home and you drain the wallet. In this scenario, did you really do a crime? You only violated protocol. It is not illegal to try random BTC keys. But I think, yes, you did.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#84

Post by faeriechangling »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #30
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

Things like this truly make me wonder what the whole point of crypto is. On one hand, if it is truly "decentralized finance" and "code is law", then, well, hats off to these MIT brothers who executed their code. I mean, nearly a decade ago the DAO was hacked due to code bugs, and despite the hard fork of Ethereum (which was quite controversial), many people thought it was essentially a fair bug bounty. If though, cry…

The reason for crypto to exist is to be a secondary financial system that you didn't need to be well connected to old-money entities or families in order to "win" from. The 2008 financial crash spurred many anti-capitalist and hyper-capitalist movements, one of the latter being cryptocurrency. They saw how nakedly well-connected people absolutely cashed the fuck out with the near-collapse of the banking system permit…

Crypto might somewhat divest itself of old money but it’s utterly dominated by new money. It’s an oligarchy with democratic elements.

Perhaps that’s inevitable though.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#85

Post by csomar »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

Things like this truly make me wonder what the whole point of crypto is. On one hand, if it is truly "decentralized finance" and "code is law", then, well, hats off to these MIT brothers who executed their code. I mean, nearly a decade ago the DAO was hacked due to code bugs, and despite the hard fork of Ethereum (which was quite controversial), many people thought it was essentially a fair bug bounty. If though, cry…

> That is, isn't the whole reason for crypto existing in the first place is that it doesn't depend on governmental backing?

I think the realization here, is that Crypto/Blockchain was competing against the DOJ (or the courts in general) rather than against the US dollar. While the US government/Fed were largely cool about crypto trying to replace the USD (many assets are, anyway), the court seems strict about maintaining it's authority of being the arbiter of who owns what.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#86

Post by throwaway290 »

lmm wrote: post #75
mrguyorama wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, much more relevant than a bunch of hucksters showing that they care more about money than ideology, The DOJ doesn't GAF what you say, they care what the laws are. Tokens are property. They technically gain all the standard property protections, like people aren't supposed to steal them from you, and fraud is still fraud. If you want code to be law, you would have to pass legislation to that effect, and good luc…

> Tokens are property Why/how? If someone "steals" "my" "property" in an online game, I don't get to call the real-world cops on them. Why should it be any different when you dress up your game in a bunch of finance words?

> Why/how? If someone "steals" "my" "property" in an online game, I don't get to call the real-world cops on them. Why should it be any different when you dress up your game in a bunch of finance words?

I thought the main difference is that game is operated by a legal entity that is a game company so cops will tell you to complain to Epic or whoever.

Imagine if some game is not operated by a single legal entity and becomes popular enough that many people routinely lose all savings etc, maybe justice system can start intervening in such cases.

But anyway in this case there are so many things wrong about prosecuting one thief for outthieving another thief, I don't even know what is the logic.

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#87

Post by fragmede »

lmm wrote: post #75
mrguyorama wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, much more relevant than a bunch of hucksters showing that they care more about money than ideology, The DOJ doesn't GAF what you say, they care what the laws are. Tokens are property. They technically gain all the standard property protections, like people aren't supposed to steal them from you, and fraud is still fraud. If you want code to be law, you would have to pass legislation to that effect, and good luc…

> Tokens are property Why/how? If someone "steals" "my" "property" in an online game, I don't get to call the real-world cops on them. Why should it be any different when you dress up your game in a bunch of finance words?

yeah, you can.

theft online is recognized by police agencies. it's an old but there was this theft in 2007, in RuneScape that resulted in real world penalties for the thieves.

https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/klevi5/in_2012_t...

Re: Crypto brothers front-ran the front-runners

#90

Post by mavelikara »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #36

> But to me what is wild about this case is that the Justice Department is bringing down the full weight of US federal criminal law to protect Ethereum front-running bots. What is surprising about that? The US tax man is making shitload of money happily taxing gains US citizens are making on cryptocurrencies. Not to mention businesses like Coinbase and Circle that are not only paying their taxes in the US but are als…

There is plenty of commerce happening in Dubai/UAE and Switzerland that US does not collect taxes on. I have never heard anyone complain about missing out on those.

Only if US tax residents are involved in the commerce does the US care. IRS will find a way to tax the commerce if US tax residents are involved, irrespective of where the crypto-related companies are located.

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