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7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

dea.gov

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Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#91
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> argument was that the drug problem was caused by prohibition To be fair, Oregon never reached the point of legal sales channels for drugs. Drug users still had to purchase drugs from a dealer. Their supply chains were the same as in other states. Actual legalisation would establish a legal purchase channel. That would come with quality controls, et cetera .

Fair point. We should have Purdue make fentanyl.

Oxy is a pretty good example of the pros and cons of legalizing it.

Deaths from prescriptions were relatively rare - but it created a huge number of addicts with escalating tolerances.

Then as progressive efforts were made to reduce distribution, pill-mills and secondary markets appeared (i.e. crime). Then with further restrictions, addicts moved off oxy entirely, onto heroin, and then fentanyl flooded in - and bodies piled up.

Just "legalizing" might reduce the harm, but would increase number of addicts. Prescriptions for existing addicts is good for them - but dealers aren't just going to give up, they'll focus on creating new users.

I don't think I've ever seen a perfect solution - but things like distributing naloxone or creating supervised places to self-administer seem like no-brainers in the meantime. Resistance seems to come from a somewhat ugly place where people see users dying as the problem being solved.

Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are not intrinsically expensive chemicals. A small charity could give it away for free. I would wager dysfunctional drug addicts don't value their time too highly, and wouldn't be put out by having to talk to someone every day to get their fix. Meanwhile it's a great place to push interventions. It's obvious fundamentalist prohibition is straight up not working.

I don't believe what I read. Giving away fentanyl for free? You have a romantic view on drugs. In such, you either are really young (and still idealistic, which is good but lacking life's experiences) or you never drink more than a beer and don't really have contact to the addicted. The aim should be to get them off this, so they stop doing EVERYthing just for getting the next high. The aim is not to even supply more…

Where did I say the goal was to "supply more of these highs" ?

You say "take it away" like there is a magic wand that hasn't been used, and just needs to be waved to make drugs disappear from existence. But rather this idea is actually just the widespread approach of prohibition, which has been tried for the past five decades, with its main result of causing great personal and societal harm.

Currently, we already have plenty of opiate addicted people seeking out their next high, and they have little problem getting it. If there is a problem getting it, it's basically a lack of money - which means it can be straightforwardly solved by stealing. Their dealer, in the best case, wants to keep them alive and addicted rather than ever pushing them to seek help. And every fix they get has a large chance of outright killing them due to lack of quality control and standards.

So no, I don't buy into this vague handwaving that the ongoing highly corrosive and grossly ineffective legal regime deserves credit for keeping the problem from being somehow worse. At this point we've already had five decades of trying fundamentalist prohibition, and it is squarely responsible for the current state of affairs.

Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would the OD rate go up? I'd say that most overdoses are caused by people not knowing exactly what they're taking. The pathological case being someone buying pills they expect to contain no opioids , but yet still ending up being cut with fentanyl because it's cheap to smuggle and provides a stand-in psychoactive effect. Also I don't see why there needs to be leverage over users to enforce laws against dealers. D…

There is dumb high school kid OD, the drug they think is safe is actually laced with too much fent. I assume you aren’t going to let these kids buy from legit sources anyways, so I’m not sure how they are avoiding buying from the homeless encampment next to their city bus stop (something that actually happened here in Seattle). Then there are people that don’t care, and do as much drugs as they can get their hands on…

How many high school kids buy alcohol and cigarettes from homeless encampments? And when they do, how much of that is dodgy hand-crafted mixtures of unknown provenance, versus sealed packages directly from the regulated supply chain?

Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oregon legalized it and then skipped doing any of the other stuff that was advertised as coming with it, like free addiction treatment, social programs, etc. It's a 'we've done nothing and we're all out of ideas' approach consistent with the state's approach to homelessness at various levels, where agencies won't even spend the money they already have because they don't even know roughly how many homeless people ther…

Some people say we should legalize drugs and then spend billions on drug addiction treatment, because somehow people should feel free to try and get addicted to drugs, because society will pay the bill to make them better afterwards? Either people should take responsibility for their own actions, or we should disallow the actions, I’m not sure how allowing the actions without personal responsibility for the consequen…

Drug addiction is a social problem

Criminalising drug users does nothing about the social problems, and makes them worse

Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we simultaneously give people the freedom to do whatever they want to do, and also catch them when they suffer the consequences of their actions. IMO, you either have freedom and responsibility, or control and care. I'd be ok legalizing drugs tomorrow if non-drug users do not need to subsidize the care for drug users.

The problem is that responsibility comes from reason, and drugs like Fentanyl are a direct attack on your faculties of reason. A lot of Enlightenment ideals fall down when faced with hyper addictive things IMO, and we just keep inventing new ones.

> and drugs like Fentanyl are a direct attack on your faculties of reason

Alcohol is a much more serious attacker of reason

Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#96
post #6

Do you think legalising safer drugs, like Heroin, would be a sensible step? [Edit: I do] I advocate legalising Opium straight away. I think Heroin is a step further than required. How many people have to die from synthetic opiate overdose? The obvious public health measure is to legalise the much safer natural alternatives.

But not with opium. Please not . Everything "natural" that can make you addicted to, is the same as synthetically made stuff that makes you addicted to. The problem is here not in the market or lacking regulations. The problem is that you have personality changing, highly addictive, dangerous stuff. Mary Jane, alcohol and tacos is enough of regulated. Advocating here doesn't take into account that the advocatee kills…

> Advocating here doesn't take into account that the advocatee kills. It's not harmless.

Opium is not a great killer

Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell this to the addicts who live on my sidewalk. Many of them got started on pain killers, and now they're permanently bent over in the fentanyl flop; I'd be astounded if any of them ever get better.

Worik's argument appears to be, if people had an unlimited supply of drugs, things would be better than a limited supply. It sounds a lot like the perspective of someone who has never listened to a recovering addict.

> sounds a lot like the perspective of someone who has never listened to a recovering addict.

Many

I came of age in a culture awash with herion

I have first hand knowledge of the harms done to drug addicts by criminalising them

Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#98
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opiates, and many classes of illegal drugs, do very little harm. Addiction is the main feature, and if the substance has no artificial scarcity, addiction is easy to manage. There is no basis on harm reduction for the drug policies being pursued in most of the world

The definition of harm is context-dependent. I think you mean that opiates and other drugs, addictive or not, when “taken at a safe dose in a health young adult” will not significantly degrade basic body function.” But opiates taken over a relatively short time can and often do greatly impair CNS neurotransmitter systems and downstream behaviors—-in some cases causing almost irremediable dysfunction. This happens to…

> opiates taken over a relatively short time can and often do greatly impair CNS neurotransmitter systems

That is untrue

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stewart_Halsted is a counter example

"Throughout his professional life, he was addicted to cocaine and later also to morphine...."

Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#99
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone with even a slight propensity for substance abuse would be an addict within a year There is no evidence for that. The evidence is that drug addiction has more to do with social issues than chemistry. The book https://chasingthescream.com/ is a good read on this issue.

Both! Sure: little risk when there are few or no drugs in a specific social setting, and no peers are using drugs. So it is true that social setting can be determinative in extreme cases. But if drugs are available and some peers are users then genetic variation definitely modulates risk of addiction to drugs that greatly degrade function and even mortality risk. I am sure you know last year’s excess death attributab…

Synthetic opiates are particularly lethal

Raw opium is much harder to kill yourself with.

For an addict herion overdose is almost unknown. True. It does not suppress the breathing reflex like morphine and synthetics.

Putting powerful deadly drugs in an easy to swallow pill is not a sensible approach to recreational drugs

Opium lounges are a much better idea. I am keen on those.

Re: 7 out of every 10 Fentanyl pills seized by DEA contain a lethal dose

#100
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definition of harm is context-dependent. I think you mean that opiates and other drugs, addictive or not, when “taken at a safe dose in a health young adult” will not significantly degrade basic body function.” But opiates taken over a relatively short time can and often do greatly impair CNS neurotransmitter systems and downstream behaviors—-in some cases causing almost irremediable dysfunction. This happens to…

> opiates taken over a relatively short time can and often do greatly impair CNS neurotransmitter systems That is untrue https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stewart_Halsted is a counter example "Throughout his professional life, he was addicted to cocaine and later also to morphine...."

You link for support for your opinion thar all drugs are benign to a Wiki entry if a scientist who died in 1922—-before there was a field of neuroscience?

My rejoinder could be 10,000 peer-reviewed papers in this millennium.

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