Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot • Hacker News Board

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#91

Post by mechanical_fish » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 1:59 PM UTC

olalonde wrote: post #54

I have noticed an interesting double standard on HN: while working in porn is perfectly fine, saying TWSS jokes is sexist because it objectivizes women as sexual objects.

Perhaps I missed the part where our local representatives of the porn industry wrote a bot that clumsily interjects talk about porn in the middle of unrelated HN conversations, and left it turned on even after people politely asked them to stop?

I'm not actually sure I've met that many people in porn (I've met some aspirants, but does that really count?), precisely because it doesn't always come up in casual conversation.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#92

Post by rimantas » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 1:59 PM UTC

unalone wrote: post #40

tomp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? I can also totally imagine the following situation: Coworker: Did I come too early? Another coworker: That's what he said! Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed.

> If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? It depends on the audience. I think that sexist jokes are in as poor taste in a workplace as racist jokes would be. I'd also be against black jokes or Mexican jokes or Jewish jokes or jokes about Catholic pedophilia. Even if the extent of the joke was something like "I'm not going to the pub with you all, I'm such a Jew", I'd fee…

And in the end there will be no jokes.

  > I think we all agree that if somebody's feeling upset by
  > the jokes, it's not a huge loss to our comedic palettes
  > to have to find another source of humor, right?

No. I strongly strongly disagree. I don't want a thermal dead of society, I don't want knee-jerk reaction to anything I say because I just mentioned some forbidden word, no matter with what intention and what context. We are slipping toward the concept thought-crime, and I surely don't want what. Neither do I want to live in the world where all must pretend, that genders don't exist.

You ar offended but what I say? To quote Stephen Fry: "So fucking what?".

To think that it is impossible to tell and be entertained by non-PC jokes is as moronic as thinking that you cannot write (or enjoy) crime fiction without being a murderer.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#93

Post by oinksoft » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:03 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #90

oinksoft wrote: post #57

Step 1: I copied the LogBot code into local files, and tried running it. And the code is pretty much that, with a few extra lines ... a copy and paste job. It really isn't difficult to write an IRC bot using the standard library ... here's my shit one that sits in ##javascript: https://github.com/pigdude/pigbot Edit: I became more curious about what the author works on -- by the favicon, I thought she must be involve…

You probably found the wrong person. I know the author personally, she is a great hacker and worked for FreshBooks for years before moving to her current job.

Maybe I did! It seemed the posting account was a "Denise", and recent changelogs on the project website only attributed documentation changes to her.

Her approach to "hacking" sure differs from mine ... from using "#!./tbenv/bin/python" (rather than "/usr/bin/env python" which will find the virtualenv link) making the code unusable for most people out of the box, to requiring a bunch of third-party libs to complete a simple task, to copy-pasta even preserving tutorial docstrings, you have to disconnect from the IRC server to reload the application logic ... it just seemed very sloppy to me.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#94

Post by Harkins » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:04 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #78

Harkins wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. An example was posted here in the last few weeks - there's a startup whose name I can't remember that plans meetups of three men and three women. They had a serious problem with cancellations, which was solved by requiring the canceller to record a voicemail to be played to the other people. Cancellations fell off 80% or more. (I'm sorry, I can't remember more specifics - anyone have the link?)

Grouper? ( http://blog.joingrouper.com/intro-to-social-hacking-how-we-l... ) ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3695748 )

Yes, thank you.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#95

Post by rimantas » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:05 PM UTC

Strallus wrote: post #72

DanBC wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a little bit hetero normative. About the sexism: She didn't make a big fuss. She just coded a neat funny bot that only talks when triggered by a certain joke. She's highlighting how tiresome some jokes are when repeated too often. She's not say "Toxic Environment because of constant sexist remarks"; she isn't calling for anyone to be disciplined or sacked. She's just talking to people.

I'm not calling her out for making a big fuss. I was just pointing out that, as far as I can tell, this joke really doesn't have its root in sexism. Other people are saying the joke is sexist, I'm saying it's not. That's all.

The case is lost. You don't find many who would even bother to think about what you are saying, you will be just down-voted by knee-jerkers, who cannot be bothered by contemplating what is sexism, what isn't. They just know what's not acceptable and act accordingly. HN is humor free zone, no matter what kind of humor that is.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#96

Post by rimantas » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:06 PM UTC

hythloday wrote: post #63

olalonde wrote: post #54

I have noticed an interesting double standard on HN: while working in porn is perfectly fine, saying TWSS jokes is sexist because it objectivizes women as sexual objects.

There's a lot of disagreement as to whether porn is "anti-feminist". The school of thought that says it isn't stresses the importance of female agency (that it's up to the porn actors to decide where they work). I don't see any agency in appearing in a "that's what she said" joke, so I'm afraid I don't see the double standard.

As if there is agreement that "sexist" jokes (or people telling them) are antifeminist.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#97

Post by Jem » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:07 PM UTC

drhowarddrfine wrote: post #79

Jem wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly made me think - I'll even admit that for a moment my cursor was hovering over the down vote arrow. It's sad, but it made me think BECAUSE there are people who think like this (and I've seen similar serious responses here on HN.)

Oh shutup.

Case in point?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#98

Post by dpritchett » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:08 PM UTC

oinksoft wrote: post #93

3pt14159 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably found the wrong person. I know the author personally, she is a great hacker and worked for FreshBooks for years before moving to her current job.

Maybe I did! It seemed the posting account was a "Denise", and recent changelogs on the project website only attributed documentation changes to her. Her approach to "hacking" sure differs from mine ... from using "#!./tbenv/bin/python" (rather than "/usr/bin/env python" which will find the virtualenv link) making the code unusable for most people out of the box, to requiring a bunch of third-party libs to complete a…

This is all perfectly appropriate for a quick hack. She's not yet hanging her career on the polish displayed in her Python bot.

Have you considered submitting a pull request? I'm sure it would be welcomed.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#99

Post by AkThhhpppt » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:10 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #62

hythloday wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, unfortunately, if there is a gender stereotype to these kinds of conversations, it's that invariably there will be a response from a man saying "you did it wrong", regardless of the particular action the woman took. c.f. "She should have talked to her supervisor" here to "she should have made a witty come-back to the guy directly" to the guy with a low-cut sense of appropriateness.

Is the difference between those solutions really just because she's a woman? I'd like to believe that they are just differences of opinion on the best way to deal with issues. Some people prefer to appeal to authority, while others feel it's better handled by routing around authority and 'handling it yourself.' Depending on what she did, she would be criticized by one group or the other. On the other hand, since this…

We'd all like to think that. Unfortunately, there's a pretty widespread tendency to tell people who bring -ism issues to attention that they're Doing It Wrong, You Should Do It This Way That Wouldn't Upset Me Instead.

So while they might be reacting with their opinion of a better solution, there's a lot of form of using that exact form of argument to attempt to silence.

Also, she was the one in the situation; perhaps she's got good reasons to do it this way, rather than whatever way is being suggested? And isn't it kinda arrogant to think you (the group you, not pyre) know better?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#100

Post by oinksoft » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:11 PM UTC

dpritchett wrote: post #98

oinksoft wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I did! It seemed the posting account was a "Denise", and recent changelogs on the project website only attributed documentation changes to her. Her approach to "hacking" sure differs from mine ... from using "#!./tbenv/bin/python" (rather than "/usr/bin/env python" which will find the virtualenv link) making the code unusable for most people out of the box, to requiring a bunch of third-party libs to complete a…

This is all perfectly appropriate for a quick hack. She's not yet hanging her career on the polish displayed in her Python bot. Have you considered submitting a pull request? I'm sure it would be welcomed.

I wouldn't submit a pull request because I'm not interested in ever using this project. It accomplishes one narrow goal and would need to be rewritten to do much else -- and the twisted requirement is onerous.

I guess it's a special effort for people to write good, simple software? Whether a quick hack or not, I think most of us would come up with something a lot nicer.

Anyway I guess I wasn't supposed to look at the code even though it's open source ...