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Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

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Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#91

Post by violiner »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I'm really, genuinely happy for you that the thing you're passionate about is something you're good at and is extremely lucrative, but if I tried to make a living doing what I'm passionate about I'd live in a cardboard box. The reality is that software eating the world (and admittedly a number of other things, but this is a big one) have made it much, much harder to make a living doing just about anything else. I got a job in software development because I was good enough at it and I needed to pay the loans from pursuing my passion. I continue doing software development because it's a way to eventually maybe escape capitalism without swallowing a bullet.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#92

Post by nologic01 »

Hacking should be recognized as an arts and crafts category.

It is a bit more abstract than making music or painting or messing with materials (wood, stone, metal etc), but it pushes the same pleasure buttons. Its the simple joy of building and sharing stuff.

In a professional context programming mutates and becomes what organized society and economies want it to be. Another cog in the machine.

Coding for money is no more or less happy than cooking, making music or applying any other intrinsically pleasurable dexterity for money.

What is intrinsically fun and something you would do "for free" becomes draining, stressful and devoid of purpose. The "purpose" in organized work is dictated by large scale patterns of supply, demand, monetisation games and organizational structures.

In a sense what we are missing are meta-tinkerers who would (for free and for fun) hack society and its economy to be a more meaningful place, one that does not make us to need to "retire from".

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#93

Post by codazoda »

teirce wrote: post #86
rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

There are a few old-adage counterpoints here, such as: don't make your passion/hobby your job, have hobbies outside of your work, etc. But you also touch on something that has surfaced as the money in tech has grown and become much more loud in the last few decades. > Bootcamps have just become farms for people who need a job, but not those who really want this job. This isn't exclusive to bootcamps - they just happe…

Just a small note… Making my programming hobby into a job has resulted in a wonderful and rewarding career for me. I’ve now been coding professionally for around 25 years. I go through waves, but you’ll often find me coding in my spare time before work, after work, or on the weekends. I do much of the stuff this author mentions too, such as designing and 3D printing parts for repairs around the house.

Anyway, to each their own, but I purposely made my hobby my career and I believe I’ve benefited greatly from that.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#94

Post by rbongers »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

What I tell people who get into software because they need a job is always that the industry also needs people with quality assurance and management skills. Not because I want to offload people who are just looking for a quick buck onto those fields, but because I sometimes find that people with the right skills just take the long way around to transition into those roles. (I've even seen this happen once with a UX designer, but I think artistic people mostly know to try for those roles.) People don't really consider the fact that it is a successful industry, but there are more roles in the industry than just developer. When the company I'm part of was a small startup, it was hard to find good people who were interested in taking on entry-level QA/scrum master positions.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#96

Post by denkmoon »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

I like to program as a hobby, but I still maintain a clock-in-clock-out mentality. If I didn't, my work would own my life. and why would I give that to my employer for free?

You can't expect to work with people who LOVE their work. That's just not how the world is set up. People gotta eat, so they take the least bad path to that. I can entirely understand why someone would pragmatically choose this career regardless of their lack of enthusiasm for it.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#97

Post by [deleted] »

bruce511 wrote: post #83
linguae wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand this point of view. Unfortunately, for those who entered computing out of a passion for it, it’s difficult to work for employers or managers where computing isn’t a passion. This leads to all sorts of practices that suck the joy out of programming (e.g., Leetcode, meetings, KPIs, PIPs, certain design decisions, etc.), reducing it to a corporate “monkey dance.” Maybe I have rose-colored glasses, or maybe…

I think you're getting vloser to the root issue. You can work with passionate people. You can work for a large corporate, for a huge paycheck and stock options. Pick one. I work for a small company, and I make a great living, but it's a fraction of a fang salary, and there is no stock to option. On the upside I'm responsible for my code base, I work on whatever I like, (which largely overlaps with customer needs sinc…

[deleted]

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#98

Post by eastbound »

rubicon33 wrote: post #52

> I am not sure though if this is still the case for software engineers. Are there younger engineers, new to the career, for whom programming is not merely a job but something they can imagine doing in their spare time? I think I met a few as I was winding down my career. I do feel though that back around 1988 or so when I started getting serious into programming that all fellow programmers I met were also doing it w…

> How is it you can love a machine?

How can a child fall into programming when the computer yells at you, with cryptic messages, uncomprehensible for a child, moreso since I was French-speaking only. “ERROR!” It even accuses you: “YOU are about to reformat this DISK. Do you want to proceed?” (7-year-old me looking up “proceed” in the dictionary, missing “reformat”. Ah, fdisk, so many nights crying that I had lost my computer).

But, speaking from experience: At least it’s your fault. You can do something about it.

Now compare to the sand pit at school: You play marbles with a girl, if she loses she goes crying to the teacher. It’s not your fault, you followed the rules, teacher tells you off, ah, gotta learn the rules of life. “Girls have cooties” is the most funny self-reflection on my childhood. There was no way as a child to learn navigating that complex rules of social precedence, implicit expectations, social cues, untold obvious rules. Even today: I’m bad at office politics, so I’m a CEO and make a million a year.

At least, with computers, when it doesn’t work: It’s my fault. I can do something about it. Same with business. It’s my fault. A provider defects? Still my fault. Economic crisis? Still more my fault than playing by the rules in the sandpit and being told off.

But people? I need five times my IQ.

Re: Same Stop: Life after 26 years as a programmer for Apple

#100

Post by nine_k »

emodendroket wrote: post #79
kweingar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this attitude in college. I wasn’t a CS major, but I really enjoyed programming. I was floored by how many CS majors seemed to not enjoy the discipline. My interest in computers and programming hasn’t waned. But with every passing year, I have become more invested in my relationships, obligations, health, and other hobbies. So programming is a much smaller slice of the pie these days. I still think of myself as…

That's well said... I feel this way even about pure fun pursuits like video games. Yeah, I still like video games, but I also like time with my daughter and wife or getting outside and playing sports or a bunch of other things I didn't use to do that kind of crowd out a well I've gone to many, many times anyway.

I think video games (like movies, books, etc) are a different kind: they are about consuming, while programming (electronics, carpentry, etc) is about creating.

Some games, like Sim City or Factorio, sort of blur the line though.

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