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Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

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Re: Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

#91
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call their bluff - don’t make your service available in Utah.

I live in Utah. If that's what happens, that would be awesome! "Sorry kids, no fb/tiktok/insta and there's nothing I can do about it. None of them work where we live" Would be a huge win for all parents. No social media, and we don't have to be the bad guys taking it away.

I don’t know how I feel about living in Utah if I couldn’t use GitHub, YouTube, stack overflow, most blogs, or any of the dozens of websites I enjoy.

I lived there for a few years in college and while I’m somewhat surprised the law passed, I’m not that surprised.

Re: Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

#92

Is it a bad time to mention that sites like stack overflow, discord, sub stack, medium, Reddit, hacker news, GitHub, YouTube, and so forth have the same traits - the same identifying markers - as what we consider traditional social media sites? How the bill defines social media: 10) (a) "Social media platform" means an online forum that a social media company 160 makes available for an account holder to: 161 (i) crea…

Stack overflow and github are the only ones that feel out of place there.

Stack overflow and GitHub both allow you to make public posts and interact with others. The text targets public user posts and interactions between users explicitly.

Whether the consequences are intentional or not is still to be determined.

Re: Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Utah. If that's what happens, that would be awesome! "Sorry kids, no fb/tiktok/insta and there's nothing I can do about it. None of them work where we live" Would be a huge win for all parents. No social media, and we don't have to be the bad guys taking it away.

Hopefully this is hyperbole. Seems a bit extreme to hope the government legislates away industries because you don't want to handle the parenting yourself.

You have to show id to buy cigarettes. How hard is it to id people before account creation?

Re: Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important difference being the ID’s purpose being just to prove your age during for that transaction, not provide a mechanism to create a permanent record of your behavior.

Well, what is your plan? We can’t pretend that letting teen suicide jump 29%, and having 1 in 5 teens now having severe depression, is an issue that parents should be solely responsible for solving. And we shouldn’t pretend yet another social program could be as effective as slowing down the source.

I have strong support for the provisions that require certain features be built into social media sites themselves (e.g. "sites must support curfew scheduling" or "sites cannot have free reign on targeted advertisements") as it gives controls people want but currently can't easily get from most of these types of apps.

At the same time I'm not really a fan of the implementation being based on providing real identity for a hard age cutoff. Maybe I'm 20 years old and don't want my real identity to be tied to the social identity for privacy/coming out/political/other reasons as personal info uploaded seems to always get leaked. Maybe I'm 17 years old and having the same restrictions as a 7 year old that will disappear instantly in 3 months doesn't make any sense and I never had good chances to learn to make good choices on my own accord while I had the strongest support structures I'll have all my life available. Maybe I'm worried this is part of a slippery slope for all, as the ages keep rising on this type of legislation over time.

Overall I'd much rather put the tools (like curfew support or removal of targeted advertisements) in the hands of people and argue why they should want to use them. Similarly, with the tools made available, I'd rather trust parents are able to learn to raise their kid on this matter as they have every other matter so if kids are found to be working around curfews set by parents we don't need the government to step in. If one argues too many parents can't then I'm sorry to say you've done a horrible job convincing anyone what you think is good is actually so and relying on unpopular law creates more problems than it solves.

Alternatively I'd at least like a solution where the associated age verification identification is unrelated to your real identity (e.g. a one time proof at the DMV when you're getting your first 18+ license that gives you some identity token which identifies you as 18+ but does nothing else and is not stored or mapped with your real identity otherwise). It doesn't solve a lot of the blind application problems (and still lacks guarantee limitations you want to follow you into adulthood, if you so choose, can) but at least it prevents one class of issues.

It may sound like I fit in the small government camp for everything but I'd say I'm fine with government getting involved with what corporations can do a lot more often than when people are involved. Overall it also depends on the issue and the alternative outcomes with implementation. I guess what I'm saying is don't generalize because I argue for small government here I also argue for it in every case all the time, even if it is about people. There are some things I think it's great to centrally legislate but content consumption is one I don't think the benefits outweigh the costs on. It's certainly the most direct and probably has the largest impact but "we've waited so long to do anything about it that the problem to become really big" is a horrible reason to pick direct and largest impact approaches.

Re: Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

#95

Is it a bad time to mention that sites like stack overflow, discord, sub stack, medium, Reddit, hacker news, GitHub, YouTube, and so forth have the same traits - the same identifying markers - as what we consider traditional social media sites? How the bill defines social media: 10) (a) "Social media platform" means an online forum that a social media company 160 makes available for an account holder to: 161 (i) crea…

Yes, and a 13 year old should absolutely not use any of those services. Discord in particular has become known as “groomercord” for it’s open pedophilia.

I haven't read the bills yet but according to the article it applies to children under 18.

17-year-old me would have considered this draconian bullsh*t, for the same reasons I would now. (So does dad me, incidentally. My kid's messages have always been her business, not mine.)

Re: Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

#96

Is it a bad time to mention that sites like stack overflow, discord, sub stack, medium, Reddit, hacker news, GitHub, YouTube, and so forth have the same traits - the same identifying markers - as what we consider traditional social media sites? How the bill defines social media: 10) (a) "Social media platform" means an online forum that a social media company 160 makes available for an account holder to: 161 (i) crea…

Yes, and a 13 year old should absolutely not use any of those services. Discord in particular has become known as “groomercord” for it’s open pedophilia.

The bill explicitly calls out “Utah minors”. That is, everyone in Utah under 18.

Re: Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

#97
post #78
post #59

How do they tell if a user is under eighteen?

Clearly teenagers are smart enough to select an age over 18.

The governor's tweet is: https://twitter.com/GovCox/status/1639015949964840960

> SB152 requires social media companies to verify that users in the state are 18 or older to open an account. Minors will need parental consent to create an account.

Ok, so what age verification does SB152 require? https://le.utah.gov/~2023/bills/static/SB0152.html

> 246 (3) (a) Beginning March 1, 2024, a social media company shall verify the age of an > 247 existing or new Utah account holder and, if the existing or new account holder is a minor, > 248 confirm that a minor has consent as required under Subsection (1):

They totally punt on the issue of how you determine if an account is a minor:

> 256 (4) In accordance with Title 63G, Chapter 3, Utah Administrative Rulemaking Act, the > 257 division, with consideration of stakeholder input, shall make rules to: > 258 (a) establish processes or means by which a social media company may meet the age > 259 verification requirements of this chapter; > 260 (b) establish acceptable forms or methods of identification, which may not be limited > 261 to a valid identification card issued by a government entity; > 262 (c) establish requirements for providing confirmation of the receipt of any information > 263 provided by a person seeking to verify age under this chapter;

It is not remotely clear how you are supposed to enforce this without requiring government id for all users. Or at least, Utah users.

Re: Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stack overflow and github are the only ones that feel out of place there.

Stack overflow and GitHub both allow you to make public posts and interact with others. The text targets public user posts and interactions between users explicitly. Whether the consequences are intentional or not is still to be determined.

but are they made available by a "social media company"? and should that be relevant?

Re: Utah is first US state to limit teen social media access

#100
post #76

Sure, let's blame social media for the troubles of our youth. It's not the endless wars. It's not the endless poverty. It's not the endless divisiveness. It's not the endless media fearmongering of X or Y. It's TikTok. It's Instagram. Etc.

As a parent, restricting social media is one of the most effective tools I think we have to promote well being. The things you mentioned are also problematic but I can limit social media access and when I do my kids are better off.

My point is, blaming SM and only SM is a (false) oversimplification. There are systematic societal issues getting a free pass because of our collective willingness to buy into a distraction that the cause is SM.

Just because adults have normalized the baggage of negativity and lack of progress doesn't mean the kids aren't feeling beyond the lies. FFS, any reasonable adult should be feeling pain and distraught at this point.

p.s. I forgot to mention climate change / environmental damage. Imagine being young and thinking "someday this shit-show will be mine." It's foolish and naive to blame SM for this.

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