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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#91

Post by ldhough »

zabzonk wrote: post #29
micromacrofoot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

college isn’t quite equivalent to trade school, it wasn’t really about getting a degree in a career field until it became so outrageously expensive that you needed to constantly consider how you’d pay it back

my point was that "art", while certainly a viable career should you have talent, cannot be taught. a bit like programming, or anything else, when i come to think of it...

"Cannot be taught" is a pretty strong claim. I'm not an artist but it is my understanding that at least some forms of art (classical, sculpting) require at least some degree of instruction, and being in school is probably going to provide easier access to resources like models. A quick google search with artists I'm familiar with (Michelangelo, Caravaggio, da Vinci) confirms all were apprenticed to other artists.

Anecdotally I think my programming skills also benefited from a formal education, though there are without a doubt many self-taught developers who far exceed my skill.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#92

Post by xyzelement »

A few posts in this thread talk about the signaling value of college and I wanted to share a thought on that.

When's the last time you saw someone wear a suit? For me, most people I see in suits now days are town car drivers. Because that's who needs to signal something (reliability?) to me in a low context environment.

People stopped wearing suits at work, even for interviews, because the signaling value of a suit is zero. I've read your LinkedIn way before I met you. If you are hot shit, I already know that. If you are not, the suit isn't going to change that.

Likewise, back in the day the fact that you had a degree and what school that degree was from, was a huge signal - often the sole signal you can get on someone prior to meeting them or considering them for a job.

Nowadays that's just not the case. Between credible certifications, blogs, gihub portfolios, open source projects, etc - I can get a TON of signal on you that would be more valuable than your college background.

To be fair not everyone thinks this way but I think that's a point in time thing. The signal is there and getting stronger, it's only matter of time before it's recognized more broadly.

And to the point, if you apprenticed in your field and had good results, people will selfishly value that more in hiring than you having gone to some woke school.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#93

Post by sergiomattei »

Honestly, what a disgrace. It’s almost like capitalism has an agenda to turn every living soul into a productive machine rather than a free-thinking, well-rounded individual.

Education is meant to prepare you to think and live, not just prepare you to work. I’m glad I didn’t drop out in my first year to chase the Silicon Valley dream, because I’d be a much more manipulable, less capable individual if I did.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#94

Post by Forgeties79 »

hgsgm wrote: post #79
varunjain99 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also add 4) A social / networking experience. As an adult, rarely will you interact so often with so many people of your age. 5. A signaling mechanism. I have X credentials so give me job Y. This is far from ideal because the signal can be noisy. But it is a data point. It's similar to how physics PhD's are targeted for quant finance roles - they've signaled they can solve hard problems!

4) if everyone wasn't locked up in college, they would meet other young adults in their neighborhood and social/hobby clubs and entertainment venues 5) in the modern day that can solved by testing regimes. A self-educated quant could take an online qualifying test, and in-person final exam, to get a job in finance.

But tons of people aren’t locked up in college and aren’t meeting people in their area. They’ve also had their entire middle and high school years to do it. If they didn’t take advantage of it then, it’s unlikely they’ll take advantage of it at 18-21.

I think we are also forgetting that it is good for people to get out of their local bubble and get other perspectives/experiences.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#95

Post by kredd »

t344344 wrote: post #46

My friend got expelled in 5th semester after spending over $70k on education. His ex went nuclear after he dumped her, and somehow that was relevant to his education. Obviously no refunds or appeal! If you are at uni, treat is as a career. You do not shit where you eat! Big part of marketing is "socializing", but that comes with a huge risks to your future and investments. Apprenticeships do not care about your sex l…

For every data point like this, there’s also data like mine - I met incredible people during my university years. Especially the first two years when we all lived on campus, we were basically a family. Even though we’re in different coasts of the continent, we still meet up 5-6 times a year, travel, some of us even married to each other.

Socializing and making new friends in your late teens and 20s is an important part of one’s life. Downplaying common space’s (e.g. college, work and etc.) importance and looking at it from a perspective of ROI, minmaxing every aspect of it is probably not the healthiest look.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#96

Post by di456 »

It's nice to see this on the white collar side.

On the blue collar side, I heard from a friend in a union skilled labor role that the quality bar is very low for some skilled trades in some US regions. Showing up to work on time and sober sets someone apart a big portion of the workforce. Working hard and eagerness to learn will go a long way in the skilled trades. Lots of opportunities for people with a positive mindset.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#98

Post by xyzelement »

azinman2 wrote: post #75
xyzelement wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are referring to something on one hand very valuable, on the other hand it's very easy to graduate college without learning that, and I think colleges themselves in recent decades are pivoting away from. A hundred+ years ago when "almost nobody" went to college, college was a place for those hungry and willing to sacrifice for intellectual growth. Nowadays college is a baseline consumer good that "almost…

Re: critical analysis. I agree with you that inconvenient truths now get muzzled because they don’t fit an acceptable meta-narrative. This is very problematic for society and when taken to the maximum, can lead to thinks like Cambodia’s attempt at restarting society by killing all those who didn’t fit the model they were looking for. > If that's what you are hungry for, college is perhaps even your least likely bet.…

Re second point, I mean something else.

200 years ago I had to go to university because why? That's where the books and smart people were concentrated.

So I would pay a lot of money and physically relocate myself to access those books and people.

Now? I can study online, I can read, I can converse with super bright people of my chosing without the friction and limits of doing that in a college environment.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#99

Post by thomastjeffery »

azinman2 wrote: post #40
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

College/University does not have a monopoly on intellectualism or networking.

There is no guarantee that attending a college or university will help you develop more than you would outside that setting. There is, however, a guaranteed cost; and that cost can be debilitating.

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