More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships • Hacker News Board

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#41

Post by 71a54xd » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:04 PM UTC

lvl102 wrote: post #17

Being a plumber, for example, is far more lucrative for most people. Military, police, then lawyer route is also very lucrative.

If the software eng market gets really really bad I might just become a licensed electrician and manage 4-5 electricians. I could remember enough of the 40% of an EE degree I finished before pivotting to CS.

Another option is getting some BS real estate certs and building some kind of middle-man operation where I facilitate / officiate sales of high end homes to rich people who can't view something before they buy (more common than you'd think).

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#42

Post by mnd999 » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

Minor49er wrote: post #20

mnd999 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you have fun though? Because imho, that’s part of the point.

The point is to get an education that can be used to get into more valuable areas of employment. $80k is a lot to spend on fun when fun can be found for free

You’re doing both, that’s the point. Too many folks on hacker news see everything in black and white.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#43

Post by analog31 » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:09 PM UTC

First of all, I'm optimistic about this. Apprenticeships could even trickle up. Here's what I mean. The article talks about an apprenticeship in the insurance industry where you're taking college classes while working a day job. This could expand into other areas, such as junior engineers / designers / programmers. It might not replace college, but turn college into something that blends with job training in a more explicit way, so that it's not an either-or choice.

But I'm wary because we don't know the breadth of what these apprenticeships actually look like, the long term prospects of the people who go through them, or the attrition rate. Remember the private for-profit college scandals. College graduates have been studied to death, but has the same scrutiny been applied to the trades?

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#44

Post by toomuchtodo » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:10 PM UTC

71a54xd wrote: post #41

lvl102 wrote: post #17

Being a plumber, for example, is far more lucrative for most people. Military, police, then lawyer route is also very lucrative.

If the software eng market gets really really bad I might just become a licensed electrician and manage 4-5 electricians. I could remember enough of the 40% of an EE degree I finished before pivotting to CS. Another option is getting some BS real estate certs and building some kind of middle-man operation where I facilitate / officiate sales of high end homes to rich people who can't view something before they buy (m…

> I might just become a licensed electrician

Depending on state, it can take several years to become licensed. I recommend starting sooner vs later, even if only part time.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#45

Post by lxm » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

4. An amalgamation of sports teams for talented athletes to shop their skills to professional sports scouts.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#46

Post by t344344 » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

My friend got expelled in 5th semester after spending over $70k on education. His ex went nuclear after he dumped her, and somehow that was relevant to his education. Obviously no refunds or appeal!

If you are at uni, treat is as a career. You do not shit where you eat! Big part of marketing is "socializing", but that comes with a huge risks to your future and investments.

Apprenticeships do not care about your sex life!

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#47

Post by tempsy » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

it’s more like people tricked into going into the finishing school route at a non-elite college, not about whether you come from a rich family or not and don’t need to take on debt.

Go to an Ivy League and major in history and you still have a better chance at getting a job at an elite investment bank than someone who goes to a non target state school and majors in statistics or something.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#48

Post by ldhough » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:13 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

throwaway6734 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many trades will be much more protected against AI gains as well

Indeed! LLMs ain't gonna be performing electrical, plumbing, earthwork, welding, or carpentry anytime soon. If anything, its going to flush out the bullshit jobs while the economy is in a position to reward those performing higher value work.

I agree but according to the BLS employment numbers are as follows in the US:

Electrician: 650k

Plumber: 469k

Earthwork: Don't see an exact match

Welding: 428k

Carpentry: 668k

Software Devs, QA, & Testing: 1.62m

Programmers: 152k

Not sure how they differentiate between devs & programmers but even if we just take the 1.62m figure it is well over half the total employment in those trades. If software devs get 75-90% replaced (I don't think it'll be this bad and for my own sake as an early career dev I really hope not but I don't see it as impossible) I imagine most white collar jobs are coming with us. Will the trades pay as well when a ton of people are looking to reskill into something that still exists?

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#49

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:15 PM UTC

t344344 wrote: post #46

My friend got expelled in 5th semester after spending over $70k on education. His ex went nuclear after he dumped her, and somehow that was relevant to his education. Obviously no refunds or appeal! If you are at uni, treat is as a career. You do not shit where you eat! Big part of marketing is "socializing", but that comes with a huge risks to your future and investments. Apprenticeships do not care about your sex l…

[deleted]

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#50

Post by michaelt » Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 5:15 PM UTC

gautamdivgi wrote: post #28

Mc91 wrote: post #9

I have been programming for a Fortune 500 company for four years. Not long ago, I applied for a job at another Fortune 500 company. HR really had only question for me, they saw on my resume I did not have a college degree listed, and did I have one? I said I went through most of college towards a Bachelors in Computer Science but dropped out before graduation. I did not get the job, although I don't know if that's wh…

I hate to say this but you were probably an unfortunate bait for a labor certification of an existing employee on an h1b visa. That is generally the only reason companies will stick to the bscs requirement. Normally if you have requisite experience the degree - especially bscs is not needed.

Eh, there is plenty of h1b nonsense, but asking for a degree is hardly unusual.

Just like quizzing people about sorting algorithms. People love to imagine the core of their job is difficult, intellectual problems that need super-smart people - so they don't have to admit the main challenge is maintaining motivation in the face of corporate BS like SOC2.