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Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

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Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#91

Post by briansmith »

raganwald wrote: post #46
briansmith wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is wrong with Windows Vista? I actually want to get Vista so I can get UAC.

Well, if you feel that Vista is wonderful, then it is reasonable for you to argue that Apple's ad is not factually correct. Such a view mirrors what MSFT's PR people are saying, namely that Vista is fine but for some reason the marketplace hasn't grasped why they should prefer it to XP or OS X. So... if you believe that the problem with Vista is its perception, then of course the solution is communication, not code.…

I don't know if Vista is wonderful or not. I just know that UAC is more convenient and more secure then the workarounds that I have to use now. I have heard the performance complaints but I've also heard that you just need to disable the visual effects and they mostly go away.

I think the main issue with Vista is that there is no obvious huge improvement that would motivate people to pay the retail price to upgrade. For example, I am interested in UAC and some of the other security features but I am reluctant to buy Vista just to get them, especially if Windows 7 is just a year or so away.

Plus, upgrading Windows has always been a hassle in the past. Right now, I guess Windows XP mostly works okay for me, so I am sticking in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" crowd.

Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#92

Post by mattmaroon »

wizlb wrote: post #77
jimbokun wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But now it just seems mean." This is Microsoft you are talking about. One thing Microsoft can never, ever earn is the right to sympathy. You may say that business is cut throat, and thus Microsoft's pitiless, air supply choking history is entirely justified. But feeling sorry for Microsoft because someone is mocking them is just absurd. They have richly earned several lifetimes of ridicule.

And Apple's full of angels right?

The only difference between the two is that Microsoft was far more successful. Apple would have done everything people complain about Microsoft doing and more. They basically have in the couple product areas where they've had similar success.

Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#93

Post by unalone »

wizlb wrote: post #89
unalone wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never used a Mac Mini, so I don't know how slow it is, though I'd guess that it's not in the same league as Apple's higher-end products. Out of curiosity, what makes Front Row worse than the Media Center? I rarely use Front Row, but I'd like to know what Vista Media Center does better. The dock absolutely is better than the task bar. The TB is cluttered - why do I need a box for every open window when I can just…

I'm not going to get in a back-and-forth with you about what I hate about Macs. The point is that there are a LOT of people out there that absolutely can't stand Macs. As a matter of fact, besides me and my wife EVERY single person in my office hates them (most of us are programmers and YES, we've actually used them before).

Back-and-forth? I asked you a few questions about what you said, and made a few statements of my own. You act like this is a hostile conversation.

I don't understand the sort of mindset that doesn't like the Mac, but I acknowledge that it exists. I would still guess that that mindset is in the minority, however: as a casual OS it is vastly better than Windows. Your office experience is not indicative of the majority of computer users.

Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#94

Post by wizlb »

unalone wrote: post #83
wizlb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest...any version of Windows is better than Leopard. Especially if you value choice and flexibility.

Leopard's plenty flexible. By choice, do you mean being forced to pay extra money just to get an operating system that hasn't had features removed? Because I know Leopard only costs $80, but it's full-featured and that's what I care about. Or do you mean the choice to tinker with every little aspect of your computer? Because the system's entirely moddable. I mean, I would never voluntarily hack my computer, because I…

Really? Kind of like the point that I was responding to? The one that made all those good points about how great Leper'd is?

Oh, but since you mentioned it...no I didn't mean any of the things you mentioned. I value the flexibility of being able to do what I want to do, the way I want to do it.

For instance, Apple is always trying to lock you into: their hardware, their iTunes store, their AppStore, their ONE way of doing things (see the pattern here?)

I can buy a Windows laptop that becomes a tablet. I can buy a Gyration (wii style) remote for my Media Center. I can get a CableCARD tuner. I can buy any graphics card under the Sun. Can you do that with Apple? No, instead Apple locks you into two choices: "somewhat expensive" and "really expensive".

Besides hardware, I also have flexibility in how I can build programs. You got xCode and Objective-C and that's all Apple will really help you with. Sure, they let you build programs in other languages like Python but since it's not part of "the ONE true way", they won't really help you much.

Microsoft OTOH supports C, C++, C#, F#, VB.Net and VB classic and they'll actually help you out with any of those (yes, even VB classic if you ask them nicely). Besides all of the officially supported languages, you still have every single language that's popular on *nix right now (Python, Perl, Ruby, etc.). Oh and the environment libraries are simply the best (.Net, WPF, DirectX, etc.) but if they aren't good enough for you there's a billion dollar market for third-party components that you can use. On the Mac? Not so much.

Then we come to user experience. I'm a power user and I could go on for days about how bad I think the Mac user interface is. I simply don't want to get into that with you, it's a very, very long discussion.

Suffice it to say that Apple is very opinionated about the way they think YOU should work and if you can't see that, you're blind. I'll take Windows over OSuX any day thx.

Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#95

Post by wizlb »

unalone wrote: post #93
wizlb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to get in a back-and-forth with you about what I hate about Macs. The point is that there are a LOT of people out there that absolutely can't stand Macs. As a matter of fact, besides me and my wife EVERY single person in my office hates them (most of us are programmers and YES, we've actually used them before).

Back-and-forth? I asked you a few questions about what you said, and made a few statements of my own. You act like this is a hostile conversation. I don't understand the sort of mindset that doesn't like the Mac, but I acknowledge that it exists. I would still guess that that mindset is in the minority, however: as a casual OS it is vastly better than Windows. Your office experience is not indicative of the majority…

Not really. What you're asking is outside of the point I'm making.

Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#96

Post by unalone »

wizlb wrote: post #95
unalone wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back-and-forth? I asked you a few questions about what you said, and made a few statements of my own. You act like this is a hostile conversation. I don't understand the sort of mindset that doesn't like the Mac, but I acknowledge that it exists. I would still guess that that mindset is in the minority, however: as a casual OS it is vastly better than Windows. Your office experience is not indicative of the majority…

Not really. What you're asking is outside of the point I'm making.

Fair enough.

Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#97

Post by wizlb »

unalone wrote: post #93
wizlb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to get in a back-and-forth with you about what I hate about Macs. The point is that there are a LOT of people out there that absolutely can't stand Macs. As a matter of fact, besides me and my wife EVERY single person in my office hates them (most of us are programmers and YES, we've actually used them before).

Back-and-forth? I asked you a few questions about what you said, and made a few statements of my own. You act like this is a hostile conversation. I don't understand the sort of mindset that doesn't like the Mac, but I acknowledge that it exists. I would still guess that that mindset is in the minority, however: as a casual OS it is vastly better than Windows. Your office experience is not indicative of the majority…

Oh and I find it amazing that you think you know what the majority of people are thinking.

I'm going off of actual experience talking to actual people that don't live in a bubble. What are you going off of? Your imagination?

Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#98

Post by thomasmallen »

wizlb wrote: post #94
unalone wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leopard's plenty flexible. By choice, do you mean being forced to pay extra money just to get an operating system that hasn't had features removed? Because I know Leopard only costs $80, but it's full-featured and that's what I care about. Or do you mean the choice to tinker with every little aspect of your computer? Because the system's entirely moddable. I mean, I would never voluntarily hack my computer, because I…

Really? Kind of like the point that I was responding to? The one that made all those good points about how great Leper'd is? Oh, but since you mentioned it...no I didn't mean any of the things you mentioned. I value the flexibility of being able to do what I want to do, the way I want to do it. For instance, Apple is always trying to lock you into: their hardware, their iTunes store, their AppStore, their ONE way of…

From my point of view, Vista could be very secure and usable, but at the end of the day I need to be on a Unix box, and Cygwin doesn't quite cut it.

This isn't in response to any particular comment, but it's based on a personal preference so I'm burying it here.

Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#99

Post by unalone »

wizlb wrote: post #94
unalone wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leopard's plenty flexible. By choice, do you mean being forced to pay extra money just to get an operating system that hasn't had features removed? Because I know Leopard only costs $80, but it's full-featured and that's what I care about. Or do you mean the choice to tinker with every little aspect of your computer? Because the system's entirely moddable. I mean, I would never voluntarily hack my computer, because I…

Really? Kind of like the point that I was responding to? The one that made all those good points about how great Leper'd is? Oh, but since you mentioned it...no I didn't mean any of the things you mentioned. I value the flexibility of being able to do what I want to do, the way I want to do it. For instance, Apple is always trying to lock you into: their hardware, their iTunes store, their AppStore, their ONE way of…

Really? Kind of like the point that I was responding to? The one that made all those good points about how great Leper'd is?

Yes, exactly like it. That post was also pointless.

For instance, Apple is always trying to lock you into: their hardware, their iTunes store, their AppStore, their ONE way of doing things (see the pattern here?)

Apple has complete control over their product. I think that is a good thing. I would shudder to think of OS X running on a Dell or an HP: it would be incomplete. As for iTunes, you can add music from outside of it and it still works. The App Store I'm hoping becomes more open - you've got a point there - but it lies entirely outside of Leopard.

Can you do that with Apple? No, instead Apple locks you into two choices: "somewhat expensive" and "really expensive".

Apple has had a choice for a long time: the choice between compromise and excellence. I am glad that they have never dumbed down their products for the sake of cheapening their product line: it has kept the brand as pure and as good as it ought to be.

but if they aren't good enough for you there's a billion dollar market for third-party components that you can use. On the Mac? Not so much.

I'm not a programmer, so I can't argue with you here. You might have a point here: I'm not entirely certain.

Then we come to user experience. I'm a power user and I could go on for days about how bad I think the Mac user interface is. I simply don't want to get into that with you, it's a very, very long discussion.

I'm not a power user. I like getting things done quickly, absolutely, and Apple makes it possible to operate entirely out of the command line if you want. I don't go that far. And as far as "power casual" - intuitive AND quick - Apple is bar none. Its ease of use is staggering compared to Windows or Linux.

Suffice it to say that Apple is very opinionated about the way they think YOU should work and if you can't see that, you're blind.

Of course I see that. I see it and like it. Nothing good has ever come out of being mild. Apple is certain that its way is the right way, and I almost always agree with it, and because of that, they've created the far superior product.

I'll take Windows over OSuX any day thx.

See, people call Apple users smug, and then say dickish things like this. I've never understood that. Of course I love Apple, but I try to at least be mature about it. Windows users get so childish and then turn around and call us smug.

If you don't want to debate, then don't debate. But don't jump in, insult something, and then get prim when the conversation doesn't end there.

Re: Apple responds to "I'm a PC"

#100

Post by unalone »

wizlb wrote: post #97
unalone wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back-and-forth? I asked you a few questions about what you said, and made a few statements of my own. You act like this is a hostile conversation. I don't understand the sort of mindset that doesn't like the Mac, but I acknowledge that it exists. I would still guess that that mindset is in the minority, however: as a casual OS it is vastly better than Windows. Your office experience is not indicative of the majority…

Oh and I find it amazing that you think you know what the majority of people are thinking. I'm going off of actual experience talking to actual people that don't live in a bubble. What are you going off of? Your imagination?

Most of the products I use are built by people who use the Mac. That's why I looked into getting a Mac in the first place.

37signals. The Big Noob. The Tumblr team. Paul Graham once wrote an article on using the Mac. The Omni Group and Panic and Delicious Monster. Coudal. Rososo and Vimeo and NowDoThis. Facebook. Everywhere I looked, people told me that the Mac was wonderful and they were fanatic about it. So I gave it a try and found that I was equally fanatic.

I'm going off of every designer whose opinion I like and respect. You're going off of people who work in a single environment. If we wanted to be logical, we'd work off of user statistics, where Apple's rated as one of the most satisfactory companies in the nation. They blow competition away. Hence my confidence in my statement. Now, can we drop it, or are you going to continue to make arguments in a debate that's convincing nobody on either side?

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