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German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

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Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#91

Post by [deleted] »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #89
ajross wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh. All I'm saying is that when real bullets are flying, you'll find you have a much (much) harder time selling people on conspiracy theories. Trying to convince people that it's really western illuminati at fault works poorly when it was the other side that rolled the tanks.

Exactly. So there's incentive for shenanigans because it's so easily dismissed. History, especially recent history*, is clear...don't underestimate the nefarious, especially when their reputations aren't properly understood. Especially when they're so adept at controlling the narrative of their story. * For example, just last week there was this: https://lawstreetmedia.com/news/citing-new-evidence-survivin... To cont…

[deleted]

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#92

Post by mk89 »

formerly_proven wrote: post #48
dividedbyzero wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German security landscape in general is in a pretty bad shape, hence such pentesting isn't all that valuable. Patch one vector, dozens or hundreds left open, and there is neither a strong security mindset nor a realistic option to implement meaningful security in infrastructure that often as not is decades old, fully analog, built without any security considerations at all, and falling apart on its own. IT securi…

> IT security is pretty catastrophic (German law makes it hard to do it properly, it's much stricter than e.g. the corresponding US law) To chime in on this, if you're in Germany and report a security vulnerability to a vendor there's a very good chance you'll get a criminal investigation, house searched, computers/phones seized for a long time etc. in return. Often in combination with a cease and desist or civil cha…

Really interesting topic: do you have any source you could share?

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#94

Post by huijzer »

dividedbyzero wrote: post #43
captainmuon wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but I would assume the same attack is not going to be successfully against the same target a second time. So they are essentially providing free pentesting. And creating a climate that allows governments to introduce much stronger security measures. Without creating much actual damage. Also I wonder if it was a physical oder purely software attack? If it was a physical attack on a critical system, it could have…

The German security landscape in general is in a pretty bad shape, hence such pentesting isn't all that valuable. Patch one vector, dozens or hundreds left open, and there is neither a strong security mindset nor a realistic option to implement meaningful security in infrastructure that often as not is decades old, fully analog, built without any security considerations at all, and falling apart on its own. IT securi…

> The German security landscape in general is in a pretty bad shape

In some sense, they are doing pretty good. Much of German's companies and government organizations rely heavily on paper, telephone calls, tape recorders, physical meetings, and even fax. Many bridges (big, but also in rural areas) even have signs containing the max weight limits for various vehicle types including tanks. I sometimes wonder whether Germany's reliance on old-fashion methods are actually meant to be as reliable as possible in worst-case scenarios and to be difficult to hack. I mean, good luck hacking a tape recorder from thousands of miles away.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#95

Post by chiefalchemist »

ajross wrote: post #90
chiefalchemist wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. So there's incentive for shenanigans because it's so easily dismissed. History, especially recent history*, is clear...don't underestimate the nefarious, especially when their reputations aren't properly understood. Especially when they're so adept at controlling the narrative of their story. * For example, just last week there was this: https://lawstreetmedia.com/news/citing-new-evidence-survivin... To cont…

> Exactly. So there's incentive for shenanigans because it's so easily dismissed. "It must be true because it seems to be false" is a giant red flag for conspiracy rhetoric, FWIW. Again, I'm not interested in engaging on the subject. I'm explaining why regular people looking at real wars don't see things your way.

> I'm explaining why regular people looking at real wars don't see things your way.

I'm explaining the same thing, the difference is my interpretation is based on actual historic events. That is, ultimately, what regular people believe isn't an accident.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#96

Post by GekkePrutser »

Xylakant wrote: post #57
hendrikrassmann wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are reports that a cable was severed. ( https://twitter.com/gebauerspon/status/1578706469570351104 ) But it's just a tweet. Don't know for sure.

Tagesschau, citing the federal police, reports that two cables at two locations in germany were cut https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bahn-sabotage-101.html The locations are a few hundred kilometers apart.

That doesn't mean it wasn't a state actor, the act itself can be done by anyone but knowing which cables to cut for maximum effect does require knowledge.

Considering it was two cables I wonder if they were part of the same fibre ring. Usually with those if the cable gets cut the traffic can route the other way around the loop. This is why they use rings instead of simple links.

It's because fibre cables are easy to cut by mistake, a digging machine will cut through it without knowing. Unlike the old backbone cables of old that were thick as a sewer pipe and carried thousands of cable pairs and heavy armour.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#97

Post by jaza »

bombcar wrote: post #45
dathinab wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to e.g. Japan and some other countries long distance trains in Germany are _very_ unreliable. Compared to some other countries it is extremely reliable. Local train service reliability differs quite a bit depending on region and sometimes in region which exact train you take. And perception of reliability can differ from reality, e.g. Berlin people always complain about how unreliable their public transporta…

Amusingly a transit system has to be pretty decent to be bad - if it is actually horribly bad people don’t treat it at all reliable so they don’t really notice late trains, because getting a train at all is a miracle.

That's basically the case here in Australia (I live in Sydney, I believe the standard is about the same in other cities). My train line has been completely closed for the past week, for "routine trackwork" (and it's not even Christmas / summer holidays). Every weekend one or more lines are closed for trackwork. Throughout this year, trains have been delayed or cancelled, often with little notice, due to workers going on strike. And I've lived in Sydney for most of my life, and it's always been like this. Can't rely on public transport.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#98

Post by namibj »

luckylion wrote: post #46
jaza wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German rail not known for its reliability... really?! Perhaps not in Germany. But in most other countries, German rail is perceived to be very reliable. And compared to rail in most other countries, German rail is very reliable!

That's why you should hire the PR companies they're using, not the train companies themselves. Partially joking, I think the image stems from the past, but the system degrades when it's not maintained appropriately. There was an entertaining talk at a CCC event a few years back which looked at DB reliability and accuracy (in German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rb9CfOvojk

The non-YouTube authoritative copy of the recording includes the other audio track(s) and sub(s), typically (for at least most main track talks of 33c3/34c3/35c3/36c3) including the live English/German dub (whichever the speaker doesn't use) courtesy of a volunteer at the event.

For this talk, there's an en dub (seems to not dub the introduction from the host, just the actual talk); have a link: https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10652-bahnmining_-_punktlichkeit...

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#99

Post by jaclaz »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #77
jaclaz wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, so the copper thieves (this time) are innocent.

Silica (SiO2) thieves don’t realize the beaches are full of it.

Yep, and while they are there they can steal also some salt water, but the rail infrastructure won't likely be affected.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#100

Post by coretx »

luckylion wrote: post #81
coretx wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You both are right. Don't forget that "Die Linke", "SPD" and other marxist invested parties serve the same role today as they did during the first cold war. Their ideology works towards a class struggle by uncivil means, destabilising their democracy. The same goes for their economic policy, it would drive the country into the ground. Or the "greens" using terror and fear campaigning against nuclear energy in the pas…

> Many people are simply controlled without realising it. I'm sure that's true in general, and you'll never know whether you did someone else's bidding without realizing it, unless they tell you (but would you believe them?) or you uncover some huge conspiracy (but then who says that's not fake to make you do something else?). I vaguely remember an interview that Adam Curtis made with some British economist for one o…

2/3 non NPC people within a political party is someone else his strawman ( on average ). But that does not automatically mean they are malicious.
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