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German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

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Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#81

Post by luckylion »

coretx wrote: post #52
luckylion wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy that theory. First of all: outside of the party "Die Linke" and the left wing of the SPD, there's little ideological friendship to Russia in German politics, it's either regular corruption (Gerhard Schröder) or industrial politics ("you give us cheap energy, we keep our eyes closed and don't mention the smell"). If anything, actions like these will make Germans more willing to spend extra money on defense…

You both are right. Don't forget that "Die Linke", "SPD" and other marxist invested parties serve the same role today as they did during the first cold war. Their ideology works towards a class struggle by uncivil means, destabilising their democracy. The same goes for their economic policy, it would drive the country into the ground. Or the "greens" using terror and fear campaigning against nuclear energy in the pas…

> Many people are simply controlled without realising it.

I'm sure that's true in general, and you'll never know whether you did someone else's bidding without realizing it, unless they tell you (but would you believe them?) or you uncover some huge conspiracy (but then who says that's not fake to make you do something else?). I vaguely remember an interview that Adam Curtis made with some British economist for one of his movies concerning stagflation and the general direction of the economy and wages at that time, and he said something like "when I can't sleep, I sometimes wonder whether what we did was exactly what someone wanted and they knew what would happen".

As for Die Linke, (the far-left wing of the) SPD and the Greens, I don't believe they're malicious. I believe they mean well, even though I probably disagree with them on most of their core issues.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#82

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

blumomo wrote: post #80
Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public transport outage is an opportunity for propaganda for the AfD and plays into their hands more than additional people coming to Berlin: they can exaggerate the numbers of their supporters and claim both victim-hood and relevancy. Many of their followers are in echo-chambers of group identity, inflated self-worth and conspiracy theories: stories of the government damaging civilian infrastructure in some blac…

Everyone is talking about AfD instead of the original point of this thread. Every time there are big demonstrations in Berlin, trains stop running, highways are closed. You are talking about AfD as if they are the culprit. I wish you personally an AfD-free country. You will then first hand experience the totalitarian state structures, who needs an opposition anyway? Away with it!!

> Every time there are big demonstrations in Berlin, trains stop running, highways are closed

Exaggerating much, aren't we?

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#83

Post by blumomo »

Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #82
blumomo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is talking about AfD instead of the original point of this thread. Every time there are big demonstrations in Berlin, trains stop running, highways are closed. You are talking about AfD as if they are the culprit. I wish you personally an AfD-free country. You will then first hand experience the totalitarian state structures, who needs an opposition anyway? Away with it!!

> Every time there are big demonstrations in Berlin, trains stop running, highways are closed Exaggerating much, aren't we?

Exaggerating (not lying!) is a helpful instrument that you sweet Germans yet have to wrap your head around ;-)

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#84

Post by Jon_Lowtek »

blumomo wrote: post #79
Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the berlin event was organized by the AfD, an ethno-nationalist party, under the motto "germany first". They are fishing in the social-liberal circles claiming to be in favor of freedom and truth, but they run a well oiled propaganda machine and would rule with an iron fist should they ever take power.

You get the totalitarian government you’re asking for, you deserve it!

The key demand by the speakers on stage at the demonstration in Berlin is about stopping the sanctions against russia and buying cheap gas from the russian siloviki, who are the epitome of a totalitarian government.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#85

Post by blumomo »

Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #84
blumomo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get the totalitarian government you’re asking for, you deserve it!

The key demand by the speakers on stage at the demonstration in Berlin is about stopping the sanctions against russia and buying cheap gas from the russian siloviki, who are the epitome of a totalitarian government.

Germans, stop buying gas from Russia, you Germans deserve politically correct gas! Buy correct American gas at ten times the price, shipped ecological friendly by Diesel ships from the US! Wait, that’s also not clean enough for you? Great, then wear 3 pullovers in your apartment, stop showering, stop sauna! No single German should support dirty gas! Turn off your heaters! And don’t go to these AfD-led demonstrations! Germans, do what’s best for you and the entire world. You Germans will save us all from the evil in this world. Yes, you can!

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#86

Post by blumomo »

lbriner wrote: post #54
blumomo wrote: post #38

Coincidentally there are very big demonstrations scheduled for today in Berlin. Trains not running to Berlin is definitely reducing the amount of participants joining these events. Just saying.

Why would they care about demonstrations? It is much easier to allow them and then ignore them than it would be if someone admitted to sabotaging a railway line to reduce numbers.

At some point demonstrations become too big in size for you to continue reliably claiming legitimate ruling power over your country.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#87

Post by sazz »

sazz wrote: post #37

"We know that at two different locations in Germany the cables were cut wantonly and deliberately." What an expression of infantility. What will happen next? Germany-wide internet blackout because someone accidentally pulled the power cable from the router?

Thanks for all the downvotes.

The point is - how can such a neuralgic facility not be secured? Deutsche Bahn is part of the critical infrastructure - and no one has carried out a vulnerability analysis? No one has thought about how this critical infrastructure can be attacked?

According to the newspaper WELT AM SONNTAG, a team of forensic experts is now at work. So it must be a place that can be entered, manipulated and left without being secured and without causing a stir?

Every $5 VPS server is obviously better secured than this facility.

And I still say: this is unparalleled infantility.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#88

Post by carlmr »

tetha wrote: post #50
dividedbyzero wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The German security landscape in general is in a pretty bad shape, hence such pentesting isn't all that valuable. Patch one vector, dozens or hundreds left open, and there is neither a strong security mindset nor a realistic option to implement meaningful security in infrastructure that often as not is decades old, fully analog, built without any security considerations at all, and falling apart on its own. IT securi…

> there is neither a strong security mindset nor a realistic option to implement meaningful security in infrastructure that often as not is decades Honestly, there is the opposite of a strong security mindset over here. Just a year ago, a security expert found an app of a major party leaking data of thousands of private persons - it was basically a web application without authorization. She tried to disclose this res…

>Casual things like 12 minute runs, obstacle courses under pressure. Things IT-Nerds are good at.

I might be able to do that, but then again the pay isn't great either. You can't ask for the right candidate with some useless extra requirements, if you don't even pay enough to get the right candidate without these extras.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#89

Post by chiefalchemist »

ajross wrote: post #64
chiefalchemist wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your side of the fence, I'd imagine that's true. On the other hand, as I understand it, the other side some years ago expressed concerns about encouragement on their borders*. In fact, I've heard it said there was an agreement that wouldn't happen...then it did. But that depth is lost? How convenient. Once you accept (?) the lies about the WMDs then it becomes clear that there are actors that have no bounds. Bel…

Meh. All I'm saying is that when real bullets are flying, you'll find you have a much (much) harder time selling people on conspiracy theories. Trying to convince people that it's really western illuminati at fault works poorly when it was the other side that rolled the tanks.

Exactly. So there's incentive for shenanigans because it's so easily dismissed.

History, especially recent history*, is clear...don't underestimate the nefarious, especially when their reputations aren't properly understood. Especially when they're so adept at controlling the narrative of their story.

* For example, just last week there was this:

https://lawstreetmedia.com/news/citing-new-evidence-survivin...

To continue to label the established MO of these outfits as "conspiracy theory" is lazy and out of touch with reality.

Re: German rail operator says train disruption caused by sabotage

#90

Post by ajross »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #89
ajross wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh. All I'm saying is that when real bullets are flying, you'll find you have a much (much) harder time selling people on conspiracy theories. Trying to convince people that it's really western illuminati at fault works poorly when it was the other side that rolled the tanks.

Exactly. So there's incentive for shenanigans because it's so easily dismissed. History, especially recent history*, is clear...don't underestimate the nefarious, especially when their reputations aren't properly understood. Especially when they're so adept at controlling the narrative of their story. * For example, just last week there was this: https://lawstreetmedia.com/news/citing-new-evidence-survivin... To cont…

> Exactly. So there's incentive for shenanigans because it's so easily dismissed.

"It must be true because it seems to be false" is a giant red flag for conspiracy rhetoric, FWIW.

Again, I'm not interested in engaging on the subject. I'm explaining why regular people looking at real wars don't see things your way.

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