Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#91

Post by butterNaN » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:18 PM UTC

spideymans wrote: post #40

andy_xor_andrew wrote: post #27

Does Firefox have a future? I'm writing this from Firefox, having used it ever since the days when Firefox releases used to have launch parties, and tabs was the revolutionary killer feature. Let me rephrase the question: does Gecko/Spidermonkey have a future? I think it's clear the Firefox branding will live on, since it is Mozilla's crown jewel. But in today's landscape, you can target WebKit (Apple) and V8/Blink (…

>Does Firefox have a future? Well, mobile is the future of computing. Does Firefox have a future on mobile? I think the answer is clearly no. Firefox will be relevant only until the Desktop PC paradigm fades into obscurity. Eventually Chrome and Safari will join Firefox in obscurity, as more content moves behind apps and walled gardens, and as the desktop paradigm falls into disuse. Give it 10 years.

Firefox on android is an objectively superior experience.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#92

Post by btown » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:20 PM UTC

bastardoperator wrote: post #74

arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

So, you weren't forced and instead opted out is what you're saying here in your opening sentence?

I think the deeper question is: Are you truly being allowed to opt out if you can't disable (or aren't ever prompted to disable without knowing an arcane set of menus) the UI elements (e.g. the aforementioned prompts on password fields, or the prompt to install an app whenever opening the mobile web version of a site) that serve as an advertisement for the specific service?

To be sure, this isn't just restricted to "please install this" dark patterns, and in certain ways it's been central to the ad-supported business model ever since the first television ad was shown on a network channel. But arguably we shouldn't give any of these examples credit for truthfully being "opt out."

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#93

Post by fariszr » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:20 PM UTC

giobox wrote: post #29

Is their Google search deal (~$400m a year) that expires next year being renewed? If not, might explain some of the desire to bite the hand that has fed it for so long.

If google cuts funding from Mozilla, its probably an existential threat for them, it's really their main income, anything else is tiny and won't be enough.

But in the same time, brave seem to be growing quickly, pushing privacy by default, and doing more impactful things for Digital Privacy, on probably a much smaller budget...

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#94

Post by osel » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

You can remove the 'iCloud' notification by starting the setup for it, and then cancelling.

It's a dark pattern Apple repeats with a lot of notifications - they are not dismissible and give the appearance they are only resolvable by completing the notified request, but it actuality just starting the setup and then cancelling will resolve it.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#95

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:23 PM UTC

g_p wrote: post #77

howinteresting wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've flagged these concerns to several people involved in Webauthn, privately and publicly, and passkey portability is pretty clearly low-priority (i.e. never going to happen) for them.

This is a shame to see - it's understandable that there are some technical challenges in it, but it does seem possible (via a mutual auth handshake) to introduce portability. Kudos to you for arguing the case though! Before "cloud keychain" (i.e. software-backed, like Apple's implementation), your only "safe" option was to have 2x hardware tokens, and try to keep one off-site, but still accessible enough you could en…

[deleted]

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#96

Post by dmitriid » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

osel wrote: post #94

arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

You can remove the 'iCloud' notification by starting the setup for it, and then cancelling. It's a dark pattern Apple repeats with a lot of notifications - they are not dismissible and give the appearance they are only resolvable by completing the notified request, but it actuality just starting the setup and then cancelling will resolve it.

Apple has become a parody of itself. A decade ago they were mocking Windows for the abundance of notifications. And now...

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#97

Post by ailef » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #54

KerrAvon wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

define "the government" -- who and what exactly is controlling this supposed policy?

Well, I guess the NSA makes the most sense. They've been integrated into the corporate structure of FAANG for over a decade now, and they're the primary government entity making demands over this stuff. The who is a lot harder to track down - maybe there is a Wizard of Oz hiding behind one of our administrative curtains, but I think it's more of a bureaucratic process. Judging by what we know about America's surveill…

Do you have any suggested readings to know more about this topic?

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#98

Post by jillesvangurp » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

andy_xor_andrew wrote: post #27

Does Firefox have a future? I'm writing this from Firefox, having used it ever since the days when Firefox releases used to have launch parties, and tabs was the revolutionary killer feature. Let me rephrase the question: does Gecko/Spidermonkey have a future? I think it's clear the Firefox branding will live on, since it is Mozilla's crown jewel. But in today's landscape, you can target WebKit (Apple) and V8/Blink (…

Supporting Firefox continues to be way easier than Safari for web developers. Chrome and Firefox are very compatible with each other. It's essentially almost no effort.

Mozilla seems to do fine keeping up. Wasm and Rust originated in Mozilla even and they are still very active on that front as well.

I seriously doubt Mozilla will kill their company by switching to Chrome. It would be suicidal for them. Users would revolt and fork the code base probably. Mozilla developers especially and without their developers Mozilla is nothing. Just look at what happened to Opera after they switched to Chrome. They technically still exist. But they are a footnote in web server statistics at this point. A rounding error basically. I've not seen anyone using it in many years now.

So, I doubt a move to Chrome would end well for Mozilla if they ever were to float such an idea. The history of Mozilla is that they bootstrapped out of AOL's Netscape division which was being mismanaged by AOL. Once the code base was OSS, people just left and created mozilla.org to cut loose from the failed corporate entity. AOL ended up with nothing. That can and will happen again if it needs to.

In short, users and developers would abandon a Chrome based Firefox in a hurry and it wouldn't take long for them to get organized with a new foundation. Wikimedia manages fine based on donations. Millions of Firefox users would be able to keep the project going pretty much indefinitely. Mozilla would lose control over most of its key people, users, and assets. Which is why they will never do this. It would be corporate suicide.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#99

Post by summerlight » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

Unfortunately in the current landscape, I think Firefox will unlikely gain the traction again even if we can bring those big techs to a fair playground. Browser development becomes an extremely complex, expensive project that requires at least hundreds of engineering headcounts and Mozilla cannot simply afford it. Worse, Servo was a kind of big bet to change the equation from the ground but Mozilla decided to abandon it. I don't see a plausible scenario to recover the market share in this situation?

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#100

Post by yjftsjthsd-h » Fri, Sep 23, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

bastardoperator wrote: post #74

arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

So, you weren't forced and instead opted out is what you're saying here in your opening sentence?

I guess if you define "forced" as "completely 100% impossible to avoid or prevent" then yes. But I think it's reasonable to say that "forced" is acceptable shorthand for "coerced by dark patterns in such a way that 99% of actual users will end up doing what the vendor wants whether they want to or not".