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People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

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Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#91

Post by psyc »

joecool1029 wrote: post #55
HereIGoAgain wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, i was focusing mostly on the "just like the Daily Stormer" part. A literal neo-nazi site.

So one site publishes articles from a political (white nationalist) standpoint, the other hosts published dossiers on individuals that have ideologies site users either hate or behavior they think is funny. Point is, they both post shit about people and things they hate or want to ridicule. Do you dispute this?

> Kiwi Farms is a ball of hate just like the Daily Stormer is.

That's some prime wordsmithing. Read it one way and it's debatably true or at least truthy. Read it another way and it's false. Confuse the two and the reader is now misinformed. Impressive rhetorical mischief.

> "hate or want to ridicule"

Is that one verb or two? Because the ridicule part is objectively true. But the hate part requires a) mind reading, and b) assuming that the feelings of a community of hundreds of people are all the same.

But you can't just say 'ridicule'. You need the 'hate' part to make your point. Hence: "hate or ridicule". As if it's all the same either way. Hate, ridicule, what's the difference? Humor, violence, what does it matter? Humor is hate, funny is violence.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#92

Post by antifa »

_9xrb wrote: post #71
api wrote: post #5

That site is much worse than this article makes it sound (and it sounds bad). Here's a little more: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...

[flagged]

> to whom everyone right of Mao is fascist.

This doesn't sound like an accurate description of a guy who openly critizes Stalin and whines all day about "tankies".

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#93

Post by kelseyfrog »

hackeraccount wrote: post #88
kelseyfrog wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really good example of sealioning. Saving this for later. Thank you.

Arguing that people acting disingenuously is a problem with the Internet seems like going after low hanging fruit.

The alternative is actively engaging with them, but the incentive structures are all messed up. If someone has more energy, time, and rhetorical maladaptions, they can "run out the clock" on internet debate. This becomes an effective strategy when we acknowledge that most internet "debates" aren't actually trying to change the minds of those engaging in them. They are performative acts intended to convince the readers which easily outnumber the participants by orders of magnitude. In essence, master debaters craft their message to appeal to viewers whilst simultaneous serving as a foil to the other participants.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#94

Post by xupybd »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #82
psyc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can certainly understand how that would be upsetting. I'm sure you understand that KF isn't about respecting.... anybody. At all. They are as irreverent as anything I've ever seen. But yes, they're attacked almost exclusively in bad faith by everybody. Everybody. As soon as somebody says "There's a website dedicated to making trans people commit suicide!" in this our Age of Outrage, there is a part of most people t…

This is a really good example of sealioning. Saving this for later. Thank you.

I often find people mistake the Socratic method with sealioning. Sometimes to argue a topic you have to ask a series of questions first to find out from what axioms the person is reasoning. It's highly unproductive when people start pulling out the term sealioning instead of actually exploring the ideas they are advocating. Because of that I'm not a fan of the term.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#95

Post by tmaly »

xupybd wrote: post #6

Kiwi Farms is a horrible abomination. One of the worst cesspits on the internet. They were sharing videos of the Christchurch massacre right after it happened. As a New Zealander it felt doubly disrespectful that they'd share that and use the name Kiwi. All of that said I respect Cloudflare staying neutral on this. Free speech is only free if we defend the speech we hate the most. Free speech has a bad name today but…

I seem to recall Cloudflare blocking Parler. They have already crossed the Rubicon.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#96

Post by kelseyfrog »

xupybd wrote: post #94
kelseyfrog wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really good example of sealioning. Saving this for later. Thank you.

I often find people mistake the Socratic method with sealioning. Sometimes to argue a topic you have to ask a series of questions first to find out from what axioms the person is reasoning. It's highly unproductive when people start pulling out the term sealioning instead of actually exploring the ideas they are advocating. Because of that I'm not a fan of the term.

The Sorcratic method is great for novice-expert dialogue. It's demeaning when it's over applied in discussion amongst peers.

If someone wants to know another's axioms, it's easy to simply preface questions with that context. Absent that, the audience will infer what the writers intentions are. Usually when the audience guesses wrong we don't blame the audience, we instead respond back with polite critique that the author's words were unclear.

Maybe I've been on the internet too much, but there's been times when it's clear the Sorcratic method was being used as a rhetorical device with great effect rather than a knowledge transference device. We can both agree that's maladaptive behavior.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#97

Post by charcircuit »

notthisagain2 wrote: post #61
HereIGoAgain wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Kiwi Farms is a ball of hate just like the Daily Stormer is" Do you have anything to back that up? KF isn't even a political site. >"Just claim Cloudflare are big Kiwi Farms supporters" Which would be an outright lie and easily disproven.

> Do you have anything to back that up? KF isn't even a political site. I won't link to them, but here are some random threads easily obtained by Googling: - "Is being a Nazi really that bad?" (Full of comments saying that, no, it isn't that bad, and in fact LGTB people are worse). - "White Supremacy Megathread" (Thread where every single comment is a full-on racist screech). - "Why do Kiwi Farms users so racist agai…

>Full of comments saying that, no, it isn't that bad, and in fact LGTB people are worse

One person giving off a list of things they think are worse who included "LGBTQ advocates" does not mean that the comment section is full of it. The thread was about the people and not the ideology.

>Thread where every single comment is a full-on racist screech

It was a 2 page shitpost thread full of everyone shitposting.

>Where every single comment tries to justify the racism of the site

This isn't true either and it was another shitpost.

>I don't expect to convince you

The approach of an outsider cherry picking threads from someone's community and then generalizing the whole community based those threads isn't effective because they know the picture you are painting of their community doesn't match what it's like to them.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#98

Post by xupybd »

emptyparadise wrote: post #67
xupybd wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you consider a body builder on gear to be biopunk? I'm not sure that self medication is a safe concept to be promoting.

I think ensuring access to proper medical care is the correct way to remove the need to self-medicate.

So by that statement self medication is not a good thing that we should be promoting?

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#99

Post by xupybd »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #96
xupybd wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often find people mistake the Socratic method with sealioning. Sometimes to argue a topic you have to ask a series of questions first to find out from what axioms the person is reasoning. It's highly unproductive when people start pulling out the term sealioning instead of actually exploring the ideas they are advocating. Because of that I'm not a fan of the term.

The Sorcratic method is great for novice-expert dialogue. It's demeaning when it's over applied in discussion amongst peers. If someone wants to know another's axioms, it's easy to simply preface questions with that context. Absent that, the audience will infer what the writers intentions are. Usually when the audience guesses wrong we don't blame the audience, we instead respond back with polite critique that the au…

> If someone wants to know another's axioms, it's easy to simply preface questions with that context

This might actually be a good technique. It is very difficult to convey good faith intentions on todays internet.

Re: People are demanding that Cloudflare drop Kiwi Farms

#100

Post by deepdriver »

cholantesh wrote: post #87
deepdriver wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual, trans activists have co-opted language of the gay rights movement (conversion therapy) to describe an altogether different situation: https://segm.org/danger_of_conflation If you care about kids, don’t ignore the growing body of evidence that suggests youth transition is overwhelmingly harmful. Don’t ignore stories like Chloe’s: https://twitter.com/ChoooCole/status/1560495012999151616 The harm will be obvio…

I don't think there is any 'danger of conflation', particularly, again, given that SEGM is also closely linked to evangelical organizations, who were trying this sort of thing 20 years ago with intelligent design. >If you care about kids, don’t ignore the growing body of evidence that suggests youth transition is overwhelmingly harmful. Don’t ignore stories like Chloe’s I think that the fact that transphobes can weap…

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