Live data from Hacker News

Racism and Meritocracy

techcrunch.com

91–100 of 123 posts

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#91
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "clearly" comes out of logic. If you assume that my "result" statement is correct, then the reason would also have to be correct. Do you think African American students, 15 years ago, were spending time studying how to use computers? I think it's rather likely because: - I've never heard of this - Such playing-with-computers is something that was confined to the somewhat richer and educated people in American soc…

Do you think African American students, 15 years ago, were spending time studying how to use computers? I've never heard of this I was, as were all of the other black computer science students who graduated with me at MIT. Do we get to question your bias now?

I learned how to code when I was 6. Anomalous, yes, but I'm questioning that one. ;)

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#92
post #55

This post has many empirical problems, but let's start by looking at the male/female deck by Terri Oda. The only data in the entire deck is on slide 21, and the caption reads: Two normal distributions that are 0.15 standard deviations apart (i.e d=0.15. This is the approximate magnitude of the gender difference in mathematics performance, averaging across all samples.) In other words, what is plotted there is actuall…

Mathematical achievement doesn't fit a gaussian, and neither do the gendered groups of your conception. And if mathematical ability were distributed as a Gaussian, and genetic, women couldn't be ascending so rapidly. See for example Lisa Sauermann, the all time best performer in the international math olympiad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Sauermann As I wrote four years ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=…

"And if mathematical ability were distributed as a Gaussian, and genetic, women couldn't be ascending so rapidly."

This is false. It could be that mathematical ability is genetic and normally distributed, but some component of women's underrepresentation is caused by factors other than this (e.g., discrimination, personal preferences).

"It's just no good at drawing conclusions on the extremes of ability. A better guide might be actual performance. The IOI this year had more girls than ever before -- 11... Were the 'standard deviation' explanation correct they should have, instead, had 0.4 girls earning maybe 0.01 medals."

Come on. I know you know better than to draw statistical conclusions from a single event with a sample size of 11. So why do it?

"The fact that g is non-zero can be readily explained by the following simple observation -- most academic subtests, including IQ's, rely on skills that are either practiced as a group, or on skills that are shared between subtests. One example is focus, in general. Another is visualisation. Another is working memory. And so on and so on."

You've come up with a plausible theory of what g is. It might be f(focus, visualization, working memory). This does not make the theory of psychometrics "totally absent of content", it just means they don't understand everything yet.

The fact that pressure is non-zero can be readily explained by the following simple observation -- air is made of particles obeying Newtonian mechanics which impart a force upon a vessel when they collide with it. Does this make thermodynamics "totally absent of content"?

The fact of the matter is that a variety of seemingly unrelated tests are correlated with each other. They are also strongly correlated with various life outcomes in a manner which more or less corresponds to our intuitive intuition about the idea of "intelligence". Stuff like this rarely happens by chance, and it is highly likely there is something behind it.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#93

I am racist. And sexist. I subconsciously attribute certain qualities to men and women, and to various ethnicities. Underneath all of the various common jokes -- "Asians are good at math", etc. -- there is an undercurrent of discussion where other people are admitting their biases, too. When I get on the phone with technical support and hear a thick East Asian accent, the first thing that happens is I grit my teeth.…

Underneath all of the various common jokes -- "Asians are good at math", etc. -- there is an undercurrent of discussion where other people are admitting their biases, too. That's not a bias, it's simple fact. Asians have SAT math scores 72 points higher than average, TIMSS scores 74 points higher than average, and are disproportionately represented in professions requiring significant mathematical background. http://…

While we're talking about simple facts, how about the simple fact that 70% of the population has an unconscious preference for whites over blacks? (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090617142120.ht... .) The hard truth is that even if you think you're unbiased, you're probably not. And brain research increasingly indicates that we simply don't know our own minds nearly as well as we think we do (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.ht...).

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#94
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize that that is the conclusion if you believe that it is inevitable that a free market will capitalize on every opportunity . I do not believe that this is so. I mentioned a few of the things which might prolong or even prevent such a thing from being successful even if there is sufficient opportunity for it. I might be willing to change my position if there were a much greater number of people with the resour…

So I think we're coming at this in two different ways. It is possible that we're just philosophically irreconcilable on that. I am skeptical, but willing to be convinced by evidence, that access to capital contributes more to success of software companies than talent. If, hypothetically, companies fail because of lacking access to capital but do not fail because of lacking access to talent, and the market selected fo…

I am skeptical, but willing to be convinced by evidence, that access to capital contributes more to success of software companies than talent.

One reason that the contrary belief is so persistent is that 'talent' is defined after the fact as that which was successful. If someone is talented but unsuccessful, you'll never hear of them. It's the dog that didn't bark. I believe that capital is a much better predictor of success than talent, as it is a much simpler, mathematically proven explanation for financial success and doesn't rely on a highly subjective judgment. I'm open to evidence to the contrary, but so far no one has produced any.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#95
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Graduating from MIT don't mean you would be beneficial to starting a tech company

Graduating from MIT don't mean you would be beneficial to starting a tech company OK, now you're grasping at straws. First it was that there are no black hackers because black people didn't put in the work to learn how to use computers. Now you're claiming that black hackers from good schools may just not be the kind of hackers beneficial to starting a tech company. When you're reduced to spouting really bad versions…

You misunderstand. I am not impressed by your school. I'd be impressed by your achievements

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#96
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking of an individual, I'm speaking of a general trend. And by the way, "graduating from MIT" means nothing to me. I went to a university, you did too, the university you went to does not mean much (to me).

And by the way, "graduating from MIT" means nothing to me. I went to a university, you did too, the university you went to does not mean much (to me). Good for you. When you say you've "never heard of" black people learning how to use computers, it behooves me to refute you with the fact that not only are there are plenty of black people who know how to use computers, but there are plenty of black people graduating f…

So do you disagree that African Americans are underrepresented in tech?

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#97
One second-order effect not mentioned in the article is as follows. Investors know that to be successful, their investees are going to need to succeed at social skills like marketing, business development, hiring, management of larger teams, etc. I suspect an inner dialogue that works against diversity may occur, such as "I am egalitarian enough to ignore this person's otherness, but will his vendors/customers/employees/future potential investors be this way too?"

I am reminded of something I heard about a distant relative of mine who was involved in breaking the color barrier in Opera back in the 50's. People told her it was silly to "waste" an opportunity on a talented singer of color, because they (of course) would never be accepted by the public.

These kinds of biases can be deeply ingrained in a culture, even when individuals in said culture are honestly free of first-order bias themselves.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#98
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Graduating from MIT don't mean you would be beneficial to starting a tech company OK, now you're grasping at straws. First it was that there are no black hackers because black people didn't put in the work to learn how to use computers. Now you're claiming that black hackers from good schools may just not be the kind of hackers beneficial to starting a tech company. When you're reduced to spouting really bad versions…

You misunderstand. I am not impressed by your school. I'd be impressed by your achievements

If you think this is about me, you're the one misunderstanding.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#99
If you're from planet Earth...

God's from planet Earth. He said, "sports".

Bible on racism:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+12...

To get God to talk, tongues:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+14...

10 i = i + 15

20 PRINT "Bible, Line:", i

30 IF i > 99999 THEN i = 0: GOTO 10

40 IF INKEY$ = "" THEN 10

50 PRINT "Bible, Line:", i

http://www.losethos.com/text/BIBLE.TXT

Line: 40800

captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city; 2:2 Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mizpar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel: 2:3 The children of Parosh, two thousand an hundred seventy and two.

2:4 The children of Shephatiah, three hundred seventy and two.

Re: Racism and Meritocracy

#100
post #65

I am racist. And sexist. I subconsciously attribute certain qualities to men and women, and to various ethnicities. Underneath all of the various common jokes -- "Asians are good at math", etc. -- there is an undercurrent of discussion where other people are admitting their biases, too. When I get on the phone with technical support and hear a thick East Asian accent, the first thing that happens is I grit my teeth.…

"Courageously" admitting something doesn't make it OK, simply based on the speculative assertion that a lot of people do the same. We may be living in a biased society, but admitting this doesn't make it excusable.

We all have our biases. Some of us try to pretend we don't but the truth is we all do. For an individual to overcome his/her biases, that person first has to accept they exist in the first place.
Post reply on HN