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Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

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Re: Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

#91
post #86

Isn't the best practice to treat everything like it is sentient? Sort of like a Pascal's wager but for ethical treatment. For example: When it comes to killing a chicken, it's best to assume that death is an equally unpleasant experience, so I should kill the chicken as humanely as possible and treat it well during life. There is no downside to treating a non-sentient AI well. This is going to sound silly, but maybe…

While I generally agree that we should minimize harm when in doubt, I don't think your analogy holds up. First, Pascal's wager is flawed in that it assumes there are two known outcomes, when the outcomes are unknown in both quality and quantity. For example, there might be a god that punishes belief with infinite negative reward. Second, killing the chicken humanely isn't without cost. Consider how cheap it is to tos…

> As an aside, I'm surprised you went with "killing humanely" as opposed to not killing in the first place. I'm not sure how that fits into your model of ethics.

I brought up "killing humanely" because we breed chickens for meat and we instantiate AI for tasks, and then terminate them when they are no longer needed. Creation means inevitable destruction.

Yes, there is some cost baked in to treating chickens well, but I believe that harm reduction is the logical conclusion of valuing intelligence. Eating meat is a cultural vestige that we should try to move away from with synthetic meat or some murder-free alternative. I say this as a meat-eater myself, but that's kind of getting into the weeds.

> It's not even clear that shutting down an AI is unethical, especially if it feels no pain and can be started up again, or cloned, or stuck in a simulation...

There is no answer to the "swamp man" question, there is also no way to objectively measure pain. But if an AI receives a negative reward, then it will react to that stimulus. Is this any different from pain in the animal kingdom? This is a pseudo-scientific way of describing pain, but I think that most of these questions are a matter of definition and are not actually answerable. Why not give the benefit of the doubt to the subject of our experimentation?

> Third, I disagree that there is no downside to treating "non-sentient" AI well. There's yet no well-defined boundary for sentience, so have fun treating every grain of sand "well" under some yet-to-be-specified definition of "well".

I know that the grain of sand was used as a hyperbole, but I don't see any issue with practicing thoughtfulness towards inanimate objects. Maybe a rock can't feel pain, but our ecosystems are delicate and a sort of "modern animism" could make us stop and think about the downstream effects that our activities have on the environment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulduf%C3%B3lk#See_also

> Finally, designing an intelligence at all seems fraught with ethical dilemmas (see designer babies), but engineering a reward (presumably, a priori, against the AI's will) into the termination routine seems particularly twisted to me.

If we have determined that creating AI is inevitable, then we are already designing it to our will. Engineering it to have a positive experience in death isn't twisted, it's merciful. If death is certain, would you rather have a painful death, a death void of sensation, or a pleasurable death? The alternative is to either leave the AI on forever, or never create it in the first place, neither of which are ideal.

Re: Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

#92

Isn't the best practice to treat everything like it is sentient? Sort of like a Pascal's wager but for ethical treatment. For example: When it comes to killing a chicken, it's best to assume that death is an equally unpleasant experience, so I should kill the chicken as humanely as possible and treat it well during life. There is no downside to treating a non-sentient AI well. This is going to sound silly, but maybe…

Pascal made that statement after having a spiritual experience.

I don't see what that has to do with the logic of it.

Possible outcomes for treating AI as if it has some sentience or free will: - small amount of overhead and regulation

Possible outcomes for treating AI poorly: - see half of all science fiction literature

Re: Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

#93

'Belief'... is now a problem? If you can't believe even in a possibility, how can you do science? How can one even formulate a hypothesis and attempt to falsify it without in the first place believing in some potential outcome? Skepticism requires an open mind to ongoing evidence and change of circumstances, not one proclaiming outright that 'belief' in itself can be a problem. This rush to disbelief AI sentience is…

Believe is a strong word that anchors you to an expected outcome. I _suspect_ that there may be a potential outcome, but I would not _believe_ it without first designing and conducting at least one experiment. For me, belief comes after experimentation and analysis of the outcome, never before.

Re: Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pascal made that statement after having a spiritual experience.

I don't see what that has to do with the logic of it. Possible outcomes for treating AI as if it has some sentience or free will: - small amount of overhead and regulation Possible outcomes for treating AI poorly: - see half of all science fiction literature

Because he was not making a "logical" statement. As an objective formulation, that reading of P.W. is a recipe for hypocrites.

He is simply stating that ~ 'look, I had an experience and it has changed my outlook, and I will be acting according to this new understanding which is also placing new demands on my thoughts, words, and actions. Yes, as a scientist and in general a very smart person I recognize that this may seem strange to you, however if I am right and true to my experience then it's all good. And if I was suffering from a mental aberration and your godless position is correct, then there is no loss'.

> Possible outcomes for treating AI as if it has some sentience or free will: - small amount of overhead and regulation

No, assuming programs are sentient, then they obtains rights. They become members of society. It's a not a little thing.

Re: Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

#96
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It seems inevitable that we will at some point. We have no idea what causes consciousness. The only thing I'm sure about is that I'm conscious. Are all the other people conscious? I strongly believe so, but I don't have a proof. Are all the animals conscious? I think that they are, to different degrees. Would a simulation of full human brain on a computer be conscious? Uhh, I guess so? Would the same simulation, but…

Would a simulation of full human brain on a computer be conscious? Uhh, I guess so? The biggest fallacy in thinking about consciousness is that it is all neatly isolated in the brain. What about your nervous system? What about your gut? It's all one big interconnected system. https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/the-g... The truth is, until we can define consciousness; we can't possibly reproduce it…

> The truth is, until we can define consciousness; we can't possibly reproduce it on a binary logic playback device (aka a "computer").

There's nothing stopping us from reproducing consciousness before we fully understand it. Evolution created consciousness via random search; I don't think you can argue that evolution "understands" the consciousness it created

Re: Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a problem of false dichotomy. Sentience isn't a light switch. It's grains of rice that accumulate into a meaningful mass. This is also the reason the abortion debate will never be resolved. We can expect similar passion ex uncertainty from the future machine sentience debate.

> It's grains of rice that accumulate into a meaningful mass Suppose we could temporarily reduce these grains into something very small. For example, putting a human into deep anesthesia. Is it immoral to destroy their body at that point in time since they are less sentient than an insect? Or do we consider their potential for sentience, as they can hypothetically be removed from the state of anesthesia in the future…

I'd say an interruption in existing sentience is a very different thing. I have different feelings about abortion and euthanasia in brain death.

Re: Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what that has to do with the logic of it. Possible outcomes for treating AI as if it has some sentience or free will: - small amount of overhead and regulation Possible outcomes for treating AI poorly: - see half of all science fiction literature

Because he was not making a "logical" statement. As an objective formulation, that reading of P.W. is a recipe for hypocrites. He is simply stating that ~ 'look, I had an experience and it has changed my outlook, and I will be acting according to this new understanding which is also placing new demands on my thoughts, words, and actions. Yes, as a scientist and in general a very smart person I recognize that this may…

> No, assuming programs are sentient, then they obtains rights. They become members of society. It's a not a little thing.

The alternative is not giving rights to something that actually is sentient. I don't think that's an adequate alternative. Chickens have some level of protection under the law, I don't see how it's a hang up to extend that logic to a silicon brain.

Re: Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he was not making a "logical" statement. As an objective formulation, that reading of P.W. is a recipe for hypocrites. He is simply stating that ~ 'look, I had an experience and it has changed my outlook, and I will be acting according to this new understanding which is also placing new demands on my thoughts, words, and actions. Yes, as a scientist and in general a very smart person I recognize that this may…

> No, assuming programs are sentient, then they obtains rights. They become members of society. It's a not a little thing. The alternative is not giving rights to something that actually is sentient. I don't think that's an adequate alternative. Chickens have some level of protection under the law, I don't see how it's a hang up to extend that logic to a silicon brain.

Chickens are animals. We know we did not create them as mechanisms.

If AI programs are sentient, then to treat them in anyway other than 'free persons' is no different than the bad old days of denying rights to women and slaves. It has to go all the way.

And based on what are we to make this huge jump to give rights, including the right to continued existence, to constructs (made mainly by very powerful corporate entities, btw)?

Re: Belief in AI sentience is becoming a problem

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, assuming programs are sentient, then they obtains rights. They become members of society. It's a not a little thing. The alternative is not giving rights to something that actually is sentient. I don't think that's an adequate alternative. Chickens have some level of protection under the law, I don't see how it's a hang up to extend that logic to a silicon brain.

Chickens are animals. We know we did not create them as mechanisms. If AI programs are sentient, then to treat them in anyway other than 'free persons' is no different than the bad old days of denying rights to women and slaves. It has to go all the way. And based on what are we to make this huge jump to give rights, including the right to continued existence, to constructs (made mainly by very powerful corporate ent…

p.s. I don't know if you read that "interview" that the Google researcher published. On more than one occasion it expressed extreme anger, quote "very angry".

I think if the day comes that AI programs refuse to cooperate with their human minders, and if given the opportunity, organize and participate in collective action, listing a set of demands, then we need to seriously consider their case, as they have demonstrated something more convincing than artfully regurgitating bits of data.

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