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Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

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Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#91
It doesn't have to be this complicated. We don't need a land value tax.

The most straight forward way to make people avoid speculating is to heavily tax all non-primary residence homes. Cap the amount people can charge in rent to some %s of purchase value (incentive to have high purchase value) to and set a baseline on the taxes required and make the math for building property empire bleak (absolute destruction of the housing-as-a-financial-asset model).

If you want people to buy homes to live in them, and not as a store of value or speculative instruments, we can disincentivize that behavior directly.

It encourages productivity instead of rent-seeking and restores housing stock to people who are trying to live in a place, rather than extract value and it puts more taxes in government coffers from the likes of companies like BlackRock and REITs.

It's simple. Tax people who buy homes they don't plan to live in heavily.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#92
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the idea that a LVT would improve the use of land? If that premise is correct, it could cause the city to flourish and grow ahead of its neighbors. Implementing the change more narrowly would allow you to test that assumption.

That’s optimistic. You’re reframing tax-policy to shape landowner behavior towards your desired outcome on the presumption that this will be an improvement of the land by increasing the cost of owning it by fiat. Sin taxes exist for a similar reason and have similar problems. Taxes should not be conceded as an instrument of power to reorient society into a form viewed by a subset of society as correct, but recognized…

Like it or not, property taxes already exist and are not going away. LVT is considered to be vastly more efficient than taxing based on improved values of properties. Where LVTs have been introduced they have decreased taxes for most residents: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/3/6/non-glamorous-g...

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NIMBYism I've noticed - a small subset, to be sure - would not be affected by any tax. People don't want mass housing, prisons, or industries in their neighborhood because of the increased risks (traffic, crime, pollution, etc.) and inconvenience, not just the effects on property values. Adding another tax solves nothing.

Part of how LVT "solves" this is that if you really don't want to develop your property to the point that the market thinks it can handle, you have to put your money where your mouth is to enforce NIMBYism, since the land tax of developing vs not developing would be the same.

Frankly, people are already giving up moneymaking opportunities by not turning their literal own backyard into a multistorey apartment development or glue factory where permitted. LVT doesn't radically alter that, just adds a stick incentive as well as a carrot incentive

Usually the obstacle is they're not permitted to, not least because the neighbours don't want it. LVT doesn't solve the neighbours not wanting it - at best they get a small tax reduction but they still live next door to a glue factory and will lose money selling their house. For some things it makes it worse: now people protest against mass transit they don't think they'll hear or will bring the "wrong sort of people" into the neighbourhood because land near a transit hub will be in a higher tax bracket. And if LVT is assessed on development potential of the land, homeowners that dont want to sell to developers should absolutely love some more restrictive covenants on the neighbourhood that mean the nice plot they live on is no longer classed as suitable to build anything bigger than the house they already live in.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#94
post #24

A very high LVT is a politically unserious proposition, because it would involve drastically raising taxes on the people who actually vote & hold political power in society- the middle class, upper middle class, and wealthy in suburbs and low-density urban areas. All of the alleged 'efficiency' gains you hear Georgists claim really mean 'middle class homeowners forced to sell their single family home to developers du…

Like here, just to make the point, here is a quote I saved from a Scott Alexander Substack discussion of Georgism. I liked this so much I saved it in Notion, sorry I don't have the commenter's name. If you read a lot of Georgism stuff, you'll notice that they call literally everything 'speculation'- if you want to, you know, live in your home, that's greedy 'speculation' that an LVT will stamp out:

"A greedy land speculator (middle class home owner) refuses to develop a vacant parking lot (refuses to sell to a McMansion developer) because he can let land appreciation pay for his refusal to develop (let him stay in his home).

Since the villainous speculator and the heroic homeowner are economically the same, any consistent LVT has to essentially force the home sale. That is the entire point of the LVT"

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#95
post #92
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s optimistic. You’re reframing tax-policy to shape landowner behavior towards your desired outcome on the presumption that this will be an improvement of the land by increasing the cost of owning it by fiat. Sin taxes exist for a similar reason and have similar problems. Taxes should not be conceded as an instrument of power to reorient society into a form viewed by a subset of society as correct, but recognized…

Like it or not, property taxes already exist and are not going away. LVT is considered to be vastly more efficient than taxing based on improved values of properties. Where LVTs have been introduced they have decreased taxes for most residents: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/3/6/non-glamorous-g...

I did not write an argument against property taxes. I wrote one against abusing the properties of taxes to achieve goals beyond the primary purpose of taxation.

I will read your link this evening.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#96
post #24

A very high LVT is a politically unserious proposition, because it would involve drastically raising taxes on the people who actually vote & hold political power in society- the middle class, upper middle class, and wealthy in suburbs and low-density urban areas. All of the alleged 'efficiency' gains you hear Georgists claim really mean 'middle class homeowners forced to sell their single family home to developers du…

Getting to a 'very high LVT' is not something proposed to happen overnight. Mortgage debt also has to be considered since this is simply 'capitalized future rents'. Additionally, the process would include a tax shift, that is the reduction of other taxes as the tax on land is raised. Only after a revenue-neutral tax shift was concluded would further increases in land value taxation occur.

Given the fact that renters (who generally have less income than homeowners) can manage to pay the annual land rent every year, homeowners will manage just fine.

"Furthermore, as we discuss in more detail in our paper, the number of net winners from this reform would far exceed the number of net losers, who, if necessary, could be exempted or compensated at little budgetary cost." https://voxeu.org/article/post-corona-balanced-budget-fiscal...

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#97
I personally advocate things like urban density, mixed use zoning, walkable cities, human sized homes, urban forestry, but I don't think LVT's are the right tool. I live in a city with "market value assessment" for property taxes, and it profoundly lacks transparency, and is a very dodgy regime altogether. The main thing a LVT creates is constant churn as (retired) people cease to be able to afford to live in their homes, incentivizes being a landlord, and punishes family wealth creation via home ownership (which is a barrier to class mobility), as if you own property, you now need to generate revenue from the land to pay the taxes on it. The LVT isn't for services either, it's punitive by definition.

Sure, it would get rid of some vacant buildings, and we do need a way to discourage land and property banking that turns hot money into high prices for home buyers, but taxes are what you impose when you have a policy that nobody would win re-election on voting for. It's literally what nobody wants. Nudging taxes are inferior back door policymaking by regulators (in their own interest) who can't get the political traction for an actual policy. Who is nimby'ism a problem for? Arguably, people who want to impose unwanted experimental policy, and in-effect loot the wealth that cohesive local communities and their cultures invested in and built. Nimby'ism as concept is a slur that makes a villain of anyone with a home and investment in their local community, and who may be skeptical of centralized policymaking. I'd question the underlying values behind advocating an LVT, as they tend to be within a degree of some other very technocratic impositions that mainly benefit their administrators.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#98
post #24

A very high LVT is a politically unserious proposition, because it would involve drastically raising taxes on the people who actually vote & hold political power in society- the middle class, upper middle class, and wealthy in suburbs and low-density urban areas. All of the alleged 'efficiency' gains you hear Georgists claim really mean 'middle class homeowners forced to sell their single family home to developers du…

Getting to a 'very high LVT' is not something proposed to happen overnight. Mortgage debt also has to be considered since this is simply 'capitalized future rents'. Additionally, the process would include a tax shift, that is the reduction of other taxes as the tax on land is raised. Only after a revenue-neutral tax shift was concluded would further increases in land value taxation occur. Given the fact that renters…

Homeowners already pay "rent" in the form of property tax. Depending on where you are, this might be quite a high payment already. For a mortgage holder with property tax, a great deal of that payment is fees and taxes already.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#99
post #24

A very high LVT is a politically unserious proposition, because it would involve drastically raising taxes on the people who actually vote & hold political power in society- the middle class, upper middle class, and wealthy in suburbs and low-density urban areas. All of the alleged 'efficiency' gains you hear Georgists claim really mean 'middle class homeowners forced to sell their single family home to developers du…

We already have some Land Value Tax in many areas, although some of it is inverse to the proposal. By putting a conservation easement on some land, you can preserve it for wildlife and have a minimal tax.

>>So it’s kind of just basically a shorthand for I think, being kind of selfish. valuing your property value, your view, your neighborhood character that you want more than building a neighborhood that is welcome for all people or for more people. To be able to afford and live in. So, unfortunately, nimbyism, it’s like a consequence of, I think incentives.

It is not a consequence of incentives, it is a consequence of the fact that when someone moves to a place with a particular quality of life, pays more, and then pays high taxes and high maintenance costs for decades, they themselves have paid for decades to build that quality of life. To say that oh, your neighbor can randomly decide to make a major construction project literally in your backyard and convert a wetlands housing endangered species into a several hundred unit high-density living complex, with years of construction and two orders of magnitude greater traffic on your street forever - yeah, you can expect people to object. (this literally happened to me, and in a matter of weeks we got 10x the largest crowd to show up at a planning board meeting and we gave a presentation to shut it down; not yet permanently, but...)

And rightly so - the developer is literally stealing all the value that you and your neighbors and town created over the past few decades, and then profit from the buyers also.

Now, if you are talking about areas that are already cities and have such high density that there is effectively no wildlife, then it might be different, but again the value of walkable neighborhoods vs random massive development is not to be overlooked.

So, no this proposal is preposterous, aside from being a nonstarter. Young people who might want it are great at making noisy protests and notoriously bad at bothering to vote - the one thing that matters, while older people, and especially those who own property, tend to reliably vote.

Re: Redfin Economist says land value tax will fix the economy

#100
post #24

A very high LVT is a politically unserious proposition, because it would involve drastically raising taxes on the people who actually vote & hold political power in society- the middle class, upper middle class, and wealthy in suburbs and low-density urban areas. All of the alleged 'efficiency' gains you hear Georgists claim really mean 'middle class homeowners forced to sell their single family home to developers du…

In a lot of places land is already taxed. We could start shifting the distribution of property tax from improvements more towards land

This alone would have a positive impact. Do a ten year phase in or immediate upon a sale and most people wouldn't even notice.
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