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24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

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Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#91

Post by Jach »

zeteo wrote: post #61
count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

>I really don't get the harsh kickbacks and complaints against things like "Facebook keeps records of pokes even if the user 'removes' them". So what? How is that something that is litigation or 'outcry' worthy? Under US contract law, misrepresentation is sufficient cause to rescind an otherwise binding contract. The contract users enter into with Facebook is to accept their terms of service in exchange for being pro…

Misrepresentation is similar to neglect in that it's typically necessary for lawyers to argue and juries to decide. In this actual case, to repeat count's analogy, why aren't filesystem users complaining that their deleted data isn't "really deleted" (ignoring that such FS software is probably a no-warranty thing)? I've had to recover rm'd data a number of times myself. I don't think "deletion" has ever meant an expectation of "completely wipe out any traces of" in the digital world. I wouldn't put it past a lawyer to be able to convince a jury otherwise though, but it'd set a dangerous precedent.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#92

Post by gsmaverick »

ltamake wrote: post #68
count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

Primary example: the Like button. Even when I'm not logged into Facebook the button tracks where I go. I never checked a box to have the like button shown to me. Also, agreeing to use a website does NOT give the website the ability to break the law. Otherwise, we could have drug-trafficking sites completely in the open with a box saying "By checking this box, you understand that we sell extremely illegal drugs, and t…

Don't visit sites that use the Like button, block the Facebook domain. It's not that difficult.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#93

Post by chc »

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #18
count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

"You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service." Likewise, Facebook chose to operate under the laws of the various lands in which it operates.

I'm honestly unclear about this: Does Facebook actually have any operations in the EU, or does it merely not ban Europeans from accessing its servers in America?

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#94

Post by pyre »

acavailhez wrote: post #50
count wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you, as a customer of those websites, agree to them knowing you are there, and they chose to share that with others, what right does the government have to prevent that? Why is this not a 'just don't use the service if you don't like it' deal? Credit bureaus are significantly different - you have literally no choice in that manner; Facebook isn't providing data to be used in that type of decision though. If so…

To respond to the last sentence : Yes, things like that can be illegal. As an example, in France it is forbidden to count the number of people who get in & out of a subway at a given station. I guess it's really a strong difference of culture between Europe and America : laws are made in Europe to make sure that people should not have to make the effort of guessing if a company will mess with their data or not. The c…

  > As an example, in France it is forbidden to count the
  > number of people who get in & out of a subway at a given
  > station.
That seems lame. That number is highly anonymous. How does a statement like "between 8am and 9am 250 people boarded the subway, and 130 people exited the subway" affect a person's privacy?

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#95

Post by estel »

nordsieck wrote: post #29
estel wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One might still wish to benefit from some of the undoubtedly useful aspects of Facebook without needlessly surrendering various rights to their data as enshrined in European law.

One might wish to eat one's cake and have it too. Not all wishes are reasonable.

"Expect this company that I'm dealing with to act within the law" is almost always reasonable.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#96

Post by pyre »

Jach wrote: post #91
zeteo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I really don't get the harsh kickbacks and complaints against things like "Facebook keeps records of pokes even if the user 'removes' them". So what? How is that something that is litigation or 'outcry' worthy? Under US contract law, misrepresentation is sufficient cause to rescind an otherwise binding contract. The contract users enter into with Facebook is to accept their terms of service in exchange for being pro…

Misrepresentation is similar to neglect in that it's typically necessary for lawyers to argue and juries to decide. In this actual case, to repeat count's analogy, why aren't filesystem users complaining that their deleted data isn't "really deleted" (ignoring that such FS software is probably a no-warranty thing)? I've had to recover rm'd data a number of times myself. I don't think "deletion" has ever meant an expe…

In a filesystem, the data isn't scrubbed but it's marked as space that can be overwritten. While the completely removal doesn't happen at once, it's slated for complete removal at some undetermined time in the future. In the case of Facebook, they are making a conscious decision that they do not want this data to ever disappear. I doubt very much that there are policies to remove data marked as 'deleted' after a set time period, or plans to implement something like that in the future. They keep the data around because it is still useful to them, even though it is no longer useful to the user.

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#97

Post by pyre »

chc wrote: post #93
OoTheNigerian wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service." Likewise, Facebook chose to operate under the laws of the various lands in which it operates.

I'm honestly unclear about this: Does Facebook actually have any operations in the EU, or does it merely not ban Europeans from accessing its servers in America?

It has a headquarters in Ireland. Apparently Ireland is a popular tax haven. Ireland is also part of the EU... Oops!

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#98

Post by shabble »

mirkules wrote: post #36
VladRussian wrote: post #28

"So many people applied for their own CDs that Facebook had to send out an email indicating it was unable to comply with the requirement that it provide the information within a 40 day period." Has Facebook considered using benefits of modern technology and delivering the requested info electronically by, for example, setting up a web site where users could access/browse/download the requested info and may be even le…

This is a standard customer service trick - externalize the cost (time) and minimize business losses (disclosure of data). Make an action difficult enough to discourage more casual users but stay within the legal limit. This is why checks take up to 14 business days to clear (to make a quick buck in those days), why you have to wait 30 minutes on hold "for the next available representative" (to discourage you calling…

I seem to recall (although perhaps folklore) that the GPL condition "[...] by the Corresponding Source fixed on a durable physical medium customarily used for software interchange." was a response to someone trying to get away with offering the source as hundreds or thousands of printed pages to discourage people

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#99

Post by jheriko »

count wrote: post #14

Maybe it's my unenlightened American perspective coming out here, but why is this a big deal? You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service. Facebook isn't a government agency, it's a private organization that has persuaded people to give it armloads of data about themselves, and uses that for whatever completely legal purposes i…

For one thing you are wrong to assume they are completely legal. Big companies with big legal departments regularly make mistakes... its human nature, but I think with big businesses the problem is exaggerated by the implicit assumption that they must be legal if they are big.

Now the fact that they collect this data and people voluntarily agree to it is precisely the evil part. People agree without realising what they are agreeing to. There is a more general problem here which isn't Facebook though - its that EULAs and fine print are given legal weight when nobody reads them and this is common knowledge.

Now... to tie this altogether I never realised Facebook would store my deleted messages that might have been in the agreement I "made" with them when I ticked that check box and pressed okay years ago. Now, flagging for deletion is fine, in their case though it costs them expensive storage space - maybe its cheaper than the processor time to delete things - either way its irrelevant because they shouldn't do this because the Data Protection Act says that information should be kept for no longer than is necessary.

I don't know if they have any need to comply with UK/EU law to allow accounts for people who live here - I don't think they do, but I would hope US law has something similar...

Re: 24 year old student lights match: Europe versus Facebook

#100

Post by estel »

chc wrote: post #93
OoTheNigerian wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You chose to use the Facebook service, you chose to provide this information to them, and you chose to agree to their terms of service." Likewise, Facebook chose to operate under the laws of the various lands in which it operates.

I'm honestly unclear about this: Does Facebook actually have any operations in the EU, or does it merely not ban Europeans from accessing its servers in America?

Users signing up in Europe will form a contract with Facebook Ireland Limited, who are registered and operate under EU law. It's not just a legal entity either, there's a pretty sizable engineering and support presence.
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