Europe is investing heavily in trains • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#91

Post by novembermike » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

AnonCoward4 wrote: post #33

lqet wrote: post #26

Here in Germany, for as long as I can remember, the government praises itself every year for investing as much in rail as never before. I have not noticed the service quality to change for the better over the last 15 years. The ever-rising investments seem to be only enough to keep the status quo of the crumbling infrastructure.

And in addition to that they also removed a lot of rail lines, especially goods traffic. It would've been a boon to have fewer trucks on the motorway and probably better for the environment.

European trains don't really do that much freight though. They tend to be optimized to carry people. America is actually way ahead of Europe in terms of rail freight, something like 10x depending on the measurement.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#92

Post by ghaff » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:05 PM UTC

noahtallen wrote: post #61

skrbjc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your perspective from someone close to the situation there. I believe many Americans have a picture of a perfect system in Europe, but the truth is likely different. Can you elaborate on the negative aspects of the train system, as you see it?

I’m an American who recently took a train in Europe from Paris to Brussels. Some brief thoughts: - It was so fast! Under 90 minutes for a journey which would have taken a few hours by car. Clearly much faster than a plane on this particular route, due to extra waiting and security in airports. - It was also a very comfortable mode. If you’re traveling with friends, it’d be very easy to socialize around a table. Quiet…

The capital of the EU to the capital of France in an adjacent country is pretty much the definition of good train travel in Europe. Also anything TGV in France. As sibling noted, Eurostar from London is also great. Various other routes are pretty good.

Prices are pretty high by and large especially if you haven't booked well in advance.

As someone else mentioned, very fragmented in Europe generally. I actually try to take trains in Europe but not always a great option especially when traversing multiple countries.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#93

Post by uoaei » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:06 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #69

skrbjc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your perspective from someone close to the situation there. I believe many Americans have a picture of a perfect system in Europe, but the truth is likely different. Can you elaborate on the negative aspects of the train system, as you see it?

Nothing is perfect, but also remember that people always find things to complain about, particularly if they don't have personal experience of less well functioning systems.

By that logic, no one should complain about anything, because we don't live in literal hell. But that is of course preposterous.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#94

Post by fundatus » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:06 PM UTC

ParksNet wrote: post #48

It doesn't make sense to emphasize passenger travel over goods transport for rail. Rail's strength is efficient transport of heavy loads at slow speeds. People are light and often want to go at high speeds. Europe should reorient its rail network for rail transport, and passengers can travel by bus or plane. But - Europe's rail network is completely reliant on subsidies, and its easier to get them when you're transpo…

Not sure about other countries, but Germany's long distance trains are run for-profit. Only commuter trains are subsidized. Tracks are paid for by taxes - but so are streets.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#95

Post by NoLinkToMe » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:07 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #46

lqet wrote: post #26

Here in Germany, for as long as I can remember, the government praises itself every year for investing as much in rail as never before. I have not noticed the service quality to change for the better over the last 15 years. The ever-rising investments seem to be only enough to keep the status quo of the crumbling infrastructure.

A youtuber explained that Italy overlayed high speed rail routes now and that it's pretty brilliant. Things are moving.

Absolutely loved taking the train in Italy, fast, convenient, cheap, good amenities. Of course the country very much lends itself for rail (more or less an elongated territory that can run a very fast high-capacity north/south backbone, with slower but more ubiquitous horizontal offshoot rail to the various smaller cities and villages), but it was still very well done. Especially considering how much tunnelling was required.

My big concern is that we're not really moving towards a single european market nor a single european train infrastructure system. I'm not sure if it can thrive as a patchwork of different ticketing systems and different rail systems. Without it it can't compete for international travel. And without it it's hard to get the right economies of scale.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#96

Post by arcticbull » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:07 PM UTC

encryptluks2 wrote: post #30

lqet wrote: post #26

Here in Germany, for as long as I can remember, the government praises itself every year for investing as much in rail as never before. I have not noticed the service quality to change for the better over the last 15 years. The ever-rising investments seem to be only enough to keep the status quo of the crumbling infrastructure.

Trains are incredibly expensive to maintain. The US still relies a lot on manual operations when running trains. I wonder if they will ever be able to fully automate their travel.

Rail infrastructure can be expensive (especially when done as inefficiently as in the US) but the actual economics of running trains are fantastic. They're the second-most efficient way of transporting goods and people - after marine shipping.

A freight train can move 1 ton of cargo 480 miles using a single gallon of diesel. [1]

Even city rail, Bart trains in SF average 249 miles per gallon equivalent.

Not to mention you only need what - one or two people - manning a train carrying the average equivalent of 700 truckloads. Once you commit to putting it up, it's super cheap and efficient, which is why we do it.

[1] https://www.aar.org/article/freight-rail-moving-miles-ahead-...

[2] https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/GreenSheet.pdf

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#97

Post by sshagent » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:07 PM UTC

lqet wrote: post #26

Here in Germany, for as long as I can remember, the government praises itself every year for investing as much in rail as never before. I have not noticed the service quality to change for the better over the last 15 years. The ever-rising investments seem to be only enough to keep the status quo of the crumbling infrastructure.

As someone who uses UK trains semi frequently, and German trains less so....I'd take your trains in a heart beat

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#98

Post by sschueller » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:07 PM UTC

ape4 wrote: post #12

More feasible than planes to electrify or switch to hydrogen (hydrogenify?)

Switzerland is one of the few countries that is 100% electrified (decision was made in 1902) and has 5,196 km of rail.

China has 100,000 km electrified which is 66% of their rail while the US has only 2,025 km electrified which is 0.92%

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tr...

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#99

Post by emn13 » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:08 PM UTC

namdnay wrote: post #32

Leherenn wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rail infrastructure is very expensive compared to planes. An airport is expensive, but once you've built it you're pretty much immediately connected to half the world. With a train station, you need a track to each surrounding stations, maintain them, and so on. Also, train doesn't scale down as well, it quickly becomes inefficient for the less dense routes. People are talking about subsidies (by not taxing fuel for…

The major subsidy to planes is that you don’t have to clean up the CO2 you spew out

But even beyond that - fuel and other power sources have been taxed well before climate change was a political issue, and jet fuel is exempt from all of that. It smacks of regulatory capture.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#100

Post by tonmoy » Mon, Apr 11, 2022, 9:08 PM UTC

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #44

I feel that when the total cost of rail is taken into account, there are only a few very high density areas or high traffic routes where they make sense. I was recently reading about how large stretches of China's bullet train system cost tens of billions of dollars, and ongoing expenditure of billions more, and have hardly enough traffic to justify their maintenance, let alone their construction costs. There are som…

You can’t just look at the income from fare and use that to justify the construction cost. The train may have brought development and investment into the area that wouldn’t have happened otherwise earning tax for the government in other ways. Highways/interstates in the US would have been an infinite percentage of loss with your original assumption since they don’t produce anything directly.