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Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

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Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#91

Post by kemitchell »

ilyich wrote: post #87
xwdv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He roughly said “See you, glory to Ukraine” and she replied “Glory to the Heroes!!” Be safe!!

The modern response "Heroiam slava!" (Glory to the heroes!) appeared in the 1930s among members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). [0] The greeting "Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!" became an official slogan of Stepan Bandera's Nazi allied OUN-B in April 1941. OUN actively participated in holocaust and other atrocities during WW2. [1] In other words, he roughly said "See you, Heil Hitler!" an…

"Glory to Russia" ("Слава России") is the name of a national series of patriotic children's contests supported by the President's Fund for Cultural Initiatives: https://www.deti-rossia.ru/. It obviously does not compare to "Heil Hitler".

"Eternal glory to heroes of the Great Patriotic War" ("Вечная слава героям ВОВ") is a common refrain in Russian remembrance of WWII. You will see it on signs and on TV around memorial holidays. It obviously does not compare to "sieg heil".

Russia also had a nationalist movement that collaborated at times with the Nazis, the Russian Liberation Army. And Russian nationalists have attempted to rehabilitate their leader, General Vlasov, since the fall of the USSR, much as Ukrainian nationalists have Stepan Bandera.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#92

Post by ethbr0 »

ModernMech wrote: post #82
basedgod wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same logic (albeit different analogy) of closing your eyes, outstretching your arms and swinging them widely. Somebody is still going to get hurt, even if they really should get out of the way. Strewing together moral absolutes means you stop living in the real world. Violence and war brings more evil to the world, even if it is morally justified. Your failure to acknowledge any of this is appalling. Some…

> Somebody whose lost their entire extended family and village by mortar fire because the Ukrainians fought back will be in an objectively much worse position than under a harsh Russian occupation. Please go ahead and make the same argument for the German Nazis. I really want to hear it. I realize in the past that Godwin would be invoked at this point, but we are now in a time where 1:1 comparisons are much more apt,…

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

Both arguments to the contrary that you've advanced, (1) that it doesn't create any more evil & (2) that any non-evil side effects are justified because of moral and/or utilitarian superiority, are slippery slopes to moral absolution of any reaction.

An action can be just, and right, and practical, and the best available option... but still be evil.

And the difference between being a despotic megalomaniac is equal parts actions undertaken and honesty about those actions.

The US is shipping weapons to Ukraine to kill Russian soldiers. I support this and believe it to be the best action possible, but I also deeply and resolutely believe it's evil.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#93

Post by ilyich »

chupy wrote: post #89
ilyich wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern response "Heroiam slava!" (Glory to the heroes!) appeared in the 1930s among members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). [0] The greeting "Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!" became an official slogan of Stepan Bandera's Nazi allied OUN-B in April 1941. OUN actively participated in holocaust and other atrocities during WW2. [1] In other words, he roughly said "See you, Heil Hitler!" an…

It's quite ridiculous but are you trying to insinuate that she was a Nazi? By the same logic you are applying does it mean that everyone that uses the phrase Allahu Akbar (God is great) is also a terrorist?

What I am trying to explain is that "Slava Ukraine! Heroyam Slava!" is a direct calque from the German "Heil Hitler! Sieg Heil!".

"Slava" literally means "Heil" ("hail" in English). "Hitler" is replaced with "Ukraine" and "Sieg" (victory) with "Heroyam" (heroes).

This salute was coined and popularized by Ukrainian Nazi collaborators during WW2.

Now it's up to you to decide whether everyone that uses the phrase Heil Hitler (Long live Hitler) is also a Nazi or not.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#94

Post by ilyich »

kemitchell wrote: post #91
ilyich wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern response "Heroiam slava!" (Glory to the heroes!) appeared in the 1930s among members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). [0] The greeting "Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!" became an official slogan of Stepan Bandera's Nazi allied OUN-B in April 1941. OUN actively participated in holocaust and other atrocities during WW2. [1] In other words, he roughly said "See you, Heil Hitler!" an…

"Glory to Russia" ("Слава России") is the name of a national series of patriotic children's contests supported by the President's Fund for Cultural Initiatives: https://www.deti-rossia.ru/ . It obviously does not compare to "Heil Hitler". "Eternal glory to heroes of the Great Patriotic War" ("Вечная слава героям ВОВ") is a common refrain in Russian remembrance of WWII. You will see it on signs and on TV around memori…

Yes, you're right. But there's a slight difference. No street, square, bridge etc. in Russia is named after Vlasov. And there are no monuments to Vlasov in Russia. Also Putin never said that praising a Nazi war criminal as a national hero is a normal and cool thing.

Zelensky: "There are indisputable heroes. Stepan Bandera is a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing." [0]

[0] - https://www.unian.info/politics/10521105-zelensky-on-bandera...

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#95

Post by kbelder »

ilyich wrote: post #87
xwdv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He roughly said “See you, glory to Ukraine” and she replied “Glory to the Heroes!!” Be safe!!

The modern response "Heroiam slava!" (Glory to the heroes!) appeared in the 1930s among members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). [0] The greeting "Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!" became an official slogan of Stepan Bandera's Nazi allied OUN-B in April 1941. OUN actively participated in holocaust and other atrocities during WW2. [1] In other words, he roughly said "See you, Heil Hitler!" an…

Yeah, and the 'ok' symbol means you're a white pride neo-nazi, right?

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#96

Post by kbelder »

ilyich wrote: post #93
chupy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite ridiculous but are you trying to insinuate that she was a Nazi? By the same logic you are applying does it mean that everyone that uses the phrase Allahu Akbar (God is great) is also a terrorist?

What I am trying to explain is that "Slava Ukraine! Heroyam Slava!" is a direct calque from the German "Heil Hitler! Sieg Heil!". "Slava" literally means "Heil" ("hail" in English). "Hitler" is replaced with "Ukraine" and "Sieg" (victory) with "Heroyam" (heroes). This salute was coined and popularized by Ukrainian Nazi collaborators during WW2. Now it's up to you to decide whether everyone that uses the phrase Heil H…

The people using it get to decide, and they obviously have, since they're not.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#97

Post by ModernMech »

ethbr0 wrote: post #92
ModernMech wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Somebody whose lost their entire extended family and village by mortar fire because the Ukrainians fought back will be in an objectively much worse position than under a harsh Russian occupation. Please go ahead and make the same argument for the German Nazis. I really want to hear it. I realize in the past that Godwin would be invoked at this point, but we are now in a time where 1:1 comparisons are much more apt,…

The lesser of two evils is still evil. Both arguments to the contrary that you've advanced, (1) that it doesn't create any more evil & (2) that any non-evil side effects are justified because of moral and/or utilitarian superiority, are slippery slopes to moral absolution of any reaction. An action can be just, and right, and practical, and the best available option... but still be evil. And the difference between be…

> are slippery slopes to moral absolution of any reaction.

Calling these arguments slippery slope doesn't really do much here. We are in fact at an absolute circumstance, so the slope doesn't really have much room to slip. I think the actions of the Russians are quite extreme, and we are allowed to make some moral judgements of these actions given how horrific they are. If we can't, then morality loses a lot of meaning. To say that we can't make a moral judgement is to say that the images we are seeing are not real or are not horrific, and that's a different discussion entirely.

> The US is shipping weapons to Ukraine to kill Russian soldiers. I support this and believe it to be the best action possible, but I also deeply and resolutely believe it's evil.

If you're going to take something that can be together just, right, practical, the best option, and yet still evil, we need to have a deeper discussion of what exactly your perception of evil is, because it seems to encompass quite a lot. If everything is evil then nothing is. Because since you're using such extreme words, you really have to take your argument to the extreme. And like I said, just because it's the extreme doesn't mean that's not where we currently are, so it's appropriate to analyze the extreme. Your argument taken to its conclusion would be that the allies freeing prisoners at Nazi death camps during WWII was a justified act of evil. I don't see any other way to interpret your argument.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#98

Post by kemitchell »

ilyich wrote: post #94
kemitchell wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Glory to Russia" ("Слава России") is the name of a national series of patriotic children's contests supported by the President's Fund for Cultural Initiatives: https://www.deti-rossia.ru/ . It obviously does not compare to "Heil Hitler". "Eternal glory to heroes of the Great Patriotic War" ("Вечная слава героям ВОВ") is a common refrain in Russian remembrance of WWII. You will see it on signs and on TV around memori…

Yes, you're right. But there's a slight difference. No street, square, bridge etc. in Russia is named after Vlasov. And there are no monuments to Vlasov in Russia. Also Putin never said that praising a Nazi war criminal as a national hero is a normal and cool thing. Zelensky: "There are indisputable heroes. Stepan Bandera is a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing." [0] [0] - http…

Equating "Слава Украине!" and "Героям слава!" with "Heil Hitler!" and "Sieg heil!" was wrong, and you knew it.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#99

Post by ilyich »

nathell wrote: post #16

Like every other day, I was shopping this morning at my local bakery in Warsaw, Poland. As I was packing my purchases, a woman next in line after me ordered coffee in Ukrainian. (We have it lucky. Polish and Ukrainian are mutually intelligible to some extent, which enables basic communication even without knowing each other's languages.) I said, to no one in particular, "Do widzenia, слава Україні" as I was leaving.…

No post body was provided.

Re: Kharkiv Rubyist during the war: We are still here

#100

Post by ethbr0 »

ModernMech wrote: post #97
ethbr0 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lesser of two evils is still evil. Both arguments to the contrary that you've advanced, (1) that it doesn't create any more evil & (2) that any non-evil side effects are justified because of moral and/or utilitarian superiority, are slippery slopes to moral absolution of any reaction. An action can be just, and right, and practical, and the best available option... but still be evil. And the difference between be…

> are slippery slopes to moral absolution of any reaction. Calling these arguments slippery slope doesn't really do much here. We are in fact at an absolute circumstance, so the slope doesn't really have much room to slip. I think the actions of the Russians are quite extreme, and we are allowed to make some moral judgements of these actions given how horrific they are. If we can't, then morality loses a lot of meani…

> We are in fact at an absolute circumstance, so the slope doesn't really have much room to slip.

E.g. "Nuking Moscow isn't evil because it will end the war in Ukraine."

> deeper discussion of what exactly your perception of evil is

The opposite of good. By my calculus, killing humans is evil.

It may be effective, in that it produces a desired outcome, and it may be just, in that the outcome promotes greater justice or lessens injustice, but those are both orthogonal measurements.

If the Red Army had murdered every guard at the Auschwitz camps in January 1945, that would have been evil. It also would have probably been just.

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